In this episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast, former CIA Chief of Disguise Jonna Mendez shares stories from her career in intelligence, including how she developed hyper-realistic masks that fooled the Secret Service and helped extract American diplomats from Iran. Mendez describes the ingenious surveillance technology her team created and explains the MICE framework—Money, Ideology, Compromise, and Ego—that drives espionage, along with practical techniques for detecting deception.
Beyond the world of spies and disguises, Mendez and Robbins discuss personal development, including how courage develops through training rather than being innate, how to distinguish intuition from fear, and why career reinvention can be transformative at any stage. The conversation also addresses global concerns about environmental degradation and international cooperation, with Mendez encouraging listeners to identify causes they care about and take individual action. Throughout, Mendez emphasizes that excellence opens unexpected doors and that meaningful accomplishment requires collaboration.

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Former CIA Chief of Disguise Jonna Mendez shares insights from her remarkable career, beginning with an unexpected path from Wichita, Kansas to intelligence work. After staying in Europe following a trip, she persistently sought work at American banks in Frankfurt despite lacking experience, eventually landing at Chase Manhattan Bank. Her CIA journey began after marrying a CIA officer, initially working as a secretary before her photography skills led to specialized work in dark rooms and eventually disguise operations.
Mendez's team developed hyper-realistic masks capable of fooling even the Secret Service. In a legendary demonstration, she wore a mask making her appear 20 years younger while briefing President George H.W. Bush in the Oval Office, only revealing the disguise dramatically at the end. Her innovations included "twin" disguises for high-surveillance environments like Russia, gender and ethnicity alterations, and complete character transformations involving custom wigs, teeth, clothing, and behavioral changes that operatives tested on unsuspecting colleagues.
The CIA's Office of Technical Service created ingenious surveillance tools including Montblanc pens capturing 100 photographs, microdots reducing entire pages to pinhead-sized photographs readable with rice-sized lenses, and cameras hidden in pregnancy bellies, bras, ties, and purses. Mendez details the famous Argo operation, where six American diplomats were extracted from Iran using a fake Hollywood film production as cover—complete with genuine Canadian passports, trade magazine ads, and a staffed LA office that withstood Iranian scrutiny.
Mendez explains that courage isn't innate but develops through knowledge, training, and confidence. She recounts walking through a group of twenty armed, intoxicated men in Latin America, relying on her training that told her not to retreat. She believes courage grows by confronting fears—whether dangerous situations or self-doubt—and starting with smaller challenges to build strength.
Despite excelling in photography, Mendez requested a posting to India where only disguise positions were available. Her willingness to change specialties mid-career proved transformative, demonstrating how previous experience fuels growth in seemingly unrelated fields. She distinguishes intuition from fear by noting that intuition communicates clear directives while fear generates persistent "what if" questioning. Mel Robbins emphasizes that intuition directs with clarity, whereas anxiety floods the mind with doubts.
Mendez introduces the MICE framework—Money, Ideology, Compromise, and Ego—explaining key motivations for espionage. Americans often betray their country for financial gain, while ideology historically motivated Soviet assets from families traumatized by Stalin's regime. Compromise involves exploiting secrets for blackmail, though Mendez notes this proved ineffective. Ego drives those feeling overlooked or resentful, making them susceptible to recruitment.
Mendez identifies key deception signals: weakening eye contact, visible nervousness, excessive persuasiveness, discomfort, and compulsive over-explanation. Liars tend to bounce around in their stories and can't let subjects go, while truth-tellers remain relaxed and clear.
Mendez emphasizes that excellence opens unexpected doors—her meticulous work as a secretary led to becoming the director's secretary, eventually enabling advancement into specialized roles. She stresses that accomplishment requires collaboration, stating, "You don't do anything by yourself... You're always part of something bigger." Despite the difficulty, she argues that change and reinvention remain "the most refreshing thing any of us can do," encouraging people to follow their ideas even without certainty. She married fellow CIA officer Tony Mendez at 46 and had a child at 47, demonstrating that significant personal transformation can occur at any career stage.
Mendez voices deep concern about the planet's future, particularly regarding global warming and environmental degradation, lamenting that "there is nobody calling balls and strikes right now." Both she and Robbins worry about eroding post-conflict alliances and international cooperation, recalling the Canadian ambassador's protection of American diplomats during the Iran Hostage Crisis as an example of collaboration now increasingly rare. Mendez advocates for individual action: "pick your fight. What is it you want to support?" Robbins points to past CIA innovations as proof of human ingenuity's capacity to solve complex problems, arguing that the missing ingredient is collective will to redirect resources toward solutions. The conversation closes with a sobering reminder about gender equality's costs in intelligence work, noting two female CIA officers now memorialized as stars on the CIA's marble wall after dying in suicide bombings.
1-Page Summary
Jonna Mendez grows up in Wichita, Kansas, expecting a typical life: marriage, children, and possibly a job related to books, such as teaching or librarianship. Her path changes suddenly when a trip to Europe leads her to stay rather than return home. Finding herself in Frankfurt, Germany, Jonna persistently calls American banks seeking work despite lacking relevant experience and language skills. Eventually, Chase Manhattan Bank agrees to interview her, providing her entry into an unexpected career path.
Jonna's journey with the CIA begins after marrying a man she later discovers is a CIA officer. Upon their assignment abroad, she seeks employment with the CIA and is hired as a secretary, the traditional role open to women at the agency. Excelling as the secretary to the director, Jonna is advised to take photography classes due to her passion for the craft. Her skill in photography leads to work in dark rooms for the CIA in Europe, and she is soon recognized for her talent, eventually rising through the ranks and leaving secretarial work behind.
Jonna Mendez’s expertise in disguise innovation includes creating hyper-realistic masks capable of fooling close observers. In a memorable demonstration, she wears a mask that makes her appear 20 years younger—modeled after a colleague—while briefing President George H.W. Bush in the Oval Office. Both the president and the Secret Service are entirely convinced by her transformation, only realizing the ruse when she removes the mask in dramatic fashion. The animating challenge is not just lifelike appearance but also capturing movement, a technical achievement that cements the mask as a legendary CIA artifact, now displayed at the International Spy Museum.
Jonna’s team masters “twin” disguises, enabling operatives to pass scrutiny in highly surveilled environments like Russia; decoys can be followed while true operatives disappear. Disguises extend to altering gender or ethnicity and utilize exquisite, hand-made wigs and custom teeth to modify a subject’s profile. Jonna and her team make character sketches that account for every aspect—habits, jewelry, glasses, and behavioral quirks—ensuring the new identity is embodied authentically. Operatives are instructed to adopt clothing they’d normally avoid, to further break familiar patterns, and are given personas complete with stories, preferences, and physical changes, then tested incognito among colleagues to verify success.
Jonna details the array of covert surveillance tech, such as Montblanc pens able to capture 100 discreet photographs. These are used to stealthily document sensitive information during seemingly ordinary activities, like note-taking at a foreign official’s desk.
A microdot, a tiny photograph of an entire page reduced 800-fold, can be hidden in plain sight as a period at the end of a sentence. These microdots are mailed internationally and deciphered with a lens the size of a grain of rice—exposing thousands of words in a pinprick.
CIA specialists in the Office of Technical Service engineer an array of gadgets: fake pregnancy bellies with hidden cameras for women, camera-equipped bras, ties for men, and purses. These tools enable agents to photograph without detection in countless scenarios.
During the Iranian Revolution, six Americans evade capture and find refuge with the Canadian ambassador. The CIA devises a c ...
Cia Career, Tradecraft, and Operations
Johna Mendez, a former CIA intelligence officer and Chief of Disguise, explains that courage is not simply innate but is cultivated through experience, knowledge, and rigorous training. She recalls confronting a life-threatening situation in Latin America, where, after inadvertently taking a shortcut, she encountered around twenty armed and intoxicated local men. Outnumbered and clearly out of place, she relied on her CIA training that instructed her not to turn back, as retreating would signal fear and heighten suspicion. Instead, she suppressed her fear and confidently walked through the group, which parted to let her pass. Mendez attributes her ability to stay calm in such perilous moments to her training and expertise, stating, "I think courage comes from confidence. Confidence comes from knowledge, from knowing what you're doing, understanding how you can impact a thing."
She believes that developing courage means actively confronting fears—whether these involve dangerous situations, difficult conversations, challenges, or self-doubt. By successfully navigating such moments, individuals build both courage and confidence. Mendez encourages starting with smaller fears and confronting them head-on as a way to exercise and strengthen courage.
Mendez’s own career trajectory demonstrates that changing paths mid-career can foster remarkable growth and opportunity. Originally serving as an executive secretary and specializing in photography within the CIA, she traveled to India for a short assignment and was deeply drawn to the country. Upon returning to Washington, she requested a posting in India even though no photography positions were available. The only option was in the disguise department, an area outside her expertise at the time.
Despite the daunting prospect of switching specialties, Mendez chose the disguise role. She reflects, "It's your life. Nobody else is gonna do it but you. You get to live it how you want." The transition transformed her into a multifaceted operative, skilled in both photography and disguise, with additional expertise in counterfeiting and forging. Her willingness to embrace a challenging career change mid-way through her professional journey proved to be not only smart but invaluable, showing how previous experience in one area can fuel growth in another seemingly unrelated field.
Mendez describes intuition as having a definitive beginning and end, something she actively follows and later evaluates to determine its accuracy, especially in judging people or situations. Mel Robbins, in conversation with Mendez, distinguishes intuition from fear by noting that intuition tends to communicate a clear, direct statement or course of action. Conversely, fear is characterized by persistent "what if" questioning and noise that undermi ...
Courage, Confidence, and Personal Reinvention
Johna Mendez explains to Mel Robbins that espionage and betrayal are rarely random acts; individuals usually require a compelling motive. She introduces the MICE framework—Money, Ideology, Compromise, and Ego—as key reasons behind why people commit espionage.
Mendez states that Americans frequently engage in espionage for monetary gain. If offered sufficient financial incentive, loyalty to the country can be overridden by either desperation or greed. She voices frustration that large sums can convince individuals to betray even their nation.
Mendez notes that ideology historically motivated many Soviet or Russian assets, particularly those from families who had suffered under Stalin's regime—families broken apart or imprisoned by the government. These traumas fueled a desire for retribution, making ideology a powerful recruitment tool.
"Compromise" refers to exploiting personal secrets for blackmail. Mendez explains that while this method was always considered in operations, it was not often used because it generally proved ineffective. Still, the threat of exposure was present as a possible lever.
Mendez highlights ego as a critical factor. Individuals overlooked for promotions, resentful of superiors, or carrying personal grudges are susceptible to recruitment. Those who feel that life is unfair or who believe their contributions are undervalued become targets, as ego-driven motives can powerfully influence decisions to spy.
Johna Mendez shares insights into spotting deception by scrutinizing body langu ...
Understanding Human Behavior and Deception
Jonna Mendez, former chief of disguise for the CIA, reflects on her life and career to offer hard-won lessons about the nature of excellence, teamwork, transformation, and personal relationships.
Jonna begins her journey in the CIA as a secretary. She emphasizes that her reputation for meticulous, high-quality work led her to become the secretary to the director—the highest position for a secretary with seemingly no upward path. However, her commitment to excellence opened unexpected doors. When she moved to Europe to work in the CIA’s dark rooms, her strong performance was quickly recognized. Mendez recalls her skill in photography: “I was excellent at this job. I am good, and they know it.” Because others knew she excelled, they trusted her with specialized tasks, even those typically reserved for men. Her experience demonstrates that excellence at any level builds reliability and unlocks restricted opportunities—allowing advancement into more complex, sensitive, or important assignments.
Jonna is clear that individual achievement in intelligence work is an illusion. No operation or project in her world was achieved in isolation. She insists, “You don’t do anything by yourself... You’re always part of something bigger than yourself if you’re going to accomplish anything.” Intelligence officers depend on teams composed of specialists, analysts, administrators, handlers, and support staff. Success is shaped by this interdependence, and recognition is always shared among those who work in concert toward a common goal.
Both Mendez and Mel Robbins highlight the courage required to reinvent oneself. Jonna admits that change—especially when it risks stability, income, or involves broader life upheaval—can be difficult. Yet she argues that change remains “the most refreshing thing any of us can do.” She describes becoming highly skilled at work she enjoyed, but still seeking new challenges, asking herself, “What else is there? Is there something as interesting, something I’d like to fiddle around with?” Mendez recalls starting her adult life as a shy college student who envisioned herself as a librarian or English teacher, but her uncharted choices led her to unexpected places and deep personal growth. Robbins adds that career pivots and reinvention aren’t starting over but rather building upo ...
Life Lessons and Wisdom
Mel Robbins and Johna Mendez discuss their profound worries about the current state of the world, sharply focusing on political tensions, environmental threats, lapses in leadership, the erosion of international alliances, and the necessary pivot to individual action. Mendez provides deeply personal reflections and warnings, highlighting both historic examples of cooperation and somber reminders of sacrifice and risk.
Johna Mendez voices significant concern: “I'm not sure that this planet is in a good place. Not politics, just this planet.” She specifically worries about the challenges the next generation will face, including global warming and environmental degradation. Mel Robbins asks directly about the health of the planet and global warming, to which Mendez replies, “I don't know how you fix the planet.” Mendez laments the lack of effective government oversight, stating, “We used to rely on our government to keep track of it for us. We've lost that. There is nobody calling balls and strikes right now. Nobody cares about doing that. So I guess we have to call our own.” As government and institutional responses stagnate or fall short, both recognize that the will to tackle planetary challenges is lacking, making it incumbent upon individuals to act.
Mel Robbins reminisces about a time with less divisiveness and more international cooperation, saying she remembers a period when nations could collaborate even if they disagreed. She expresses concern that “there was a lot more working together and collaborating even if we didn't see eye to eye” and worries “we have lost our ability to do that.” Johna Mendez adds, “I don't know how you get that back, but it'd be worth working on it.” The conversation highlights the Canadian ambassador Ken Taylor's decision during the Iran Hostage Crisis, when he protected six American diplomats: “We will protect you. You're practically Canadian. We're practically American. Come on in.” Both see this kind of alliance and protectiveness as increasingly rare amidst today’s divisive international climate.
Confronted with vast problems, Mendez advocates for individual responsibility: “So you have to pick the piece. Probably pick your fight. What is it you want to support?” The advice is practical—manage crisis anxiety first, then act. Small steps by many, focused on chosen causes rather than being overwhelmed, can, in sum, address seemingly insurmountable global issues.
Robbins points to past achievements as evidence: “I know that if decades ago you could figure out how to use a pen to take a photo and then shrink it down to a pinprick and then create a lens the size of a grain o ...
Global Concerns and the State of the World
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