In this episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, Tania de Jong shares how Australia became the first country to legalize MDMA and psilocybin for psychiatric treatment. De Jong describes her personal introduction to psychedelics through Ferriss's writing, her own transformative psilocybin experiences, and the founding of Mind Medicine Australia in 2019. She outlines the multi-year advocacy campaign that combined scientific credibility, grassroots mobilization, and strategic regulatory navigation to overcome repeated rejections.
The conversation covers the practical infrastructure built to support these therapies, including clinician training programs, patient funding mechanisms, and real-world evidence collection showing 60-80% remission rates for treatment-resistant conditions. De Jong provides a blueprint for advocates in other countries, discussing both successful strategies and mistakes to avoid. You'll come away from this episode with an understanding of how coordinated advocacy can transform medical policy and what it takes to bring therapeutic psychedelics from research into clinical practice.

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Tania de Jong's journey into psychedelic advocacy began in 2015 after reading Tim Ferriss's blog post about his $100,000 donation to Johns Hopkins for psilocybin depression research. Having never consumed alcohol, coffee, or drugs, she was captivated by Michael Pollan's "The Trip Treatment" article and its description of healing potential. After sharing the article with her husband Peter, they decided to pursue their own psychedelic experience through a clinical trial.
Tania and Peter arranged a guided psilocybin session in the Netherlands using a protocol that combined dried mushrooms (2 to 2.5 grams) with Syrian rue, an MAOI that amplifies and extends the effects into a more ayahuasca-like experience called "Siluosca." Tania describes the 30-minute onset bringing overwhelming kaleidoscopes of color and profound ancestral connections. The experience transformed how she perceived nature and brought the couple closer together. Quoting Aldous Huxley, she notes, "Once the doors of perception are open, you can never shut them again." Despite initially claiming she'd never repeat it, they returned for a higher-dose journey that proved even more transformative.
Following their profound experiences, Tania and Peter—already established philanthropists—began considering psilocybin's potential for treating depression, trauma, homelessness, and other conditions rooted in mental health challenges. They immersed themselves in the global psychedelic research community, attending conferences and meeting leaders like Rick Doblin, Robin Carhart-Harris, Roland Griffiths, and David Nutt. Encouraged by Doblin in 2018, they founded Mind Medicine Australia in February 2019 to bring psychedelic medicine's healing potential to Australians and facilitate clinical research and public dialogue.
The campaign to reschedule MDMA and psilocybin in Australia relied on several key strategies. Mind Medicine Australia assembled an advisory panel of approximately 75 leading researchers and clinicians, including David Nutt and Robin Carhart-Harris, lending crucial credibility. They established over 30 local chapters nationwide to build grassroots support and began training clinicians through a certificate program in psychedelic-assisted therapy. By the time of rescheduling, over 750 clinicians—psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses, and other healthcare professionals—had been certified, creating a powerful professional constituency.
During public consultation periods, Mind Medicine Australia launched an intensive education campaign, providing templates and guidance for submissions. Over 13,000 Australians submitted statements to the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), with more than 98% in favor—the largest medicine rescheduling response in TGA history. The campaign brought international researchers like David Nutt to Australia for speaking tours and town halls. A pivotal moment came when Vanessa, widow of a suicide victim named Franco, spoke at the TGA alongside Professor Nutt about her belief that psychedelic therapy could have saved her husband's life, humanizing the consequences of regulatory inaction.
From late 2020 onwards, Mind Medicine Australia submitted multiple applications that were repeatedly rejected. Tania de Jong and Peter systematically analyzed each rejection, crafting increasingly detailed resubmissions that addressed regulatory concerns. They maintained direct communication with TGA leadership, even securing the TGA head's mobile number for urgent advocacy. Finally, on February 3, 2023, the TGA announced the rescheduling of MDMA and psilocybin to Schedule 8 for psychiatric treatment, making Australia the first country globally to do so.
The campaign hired experienced lobbyists like Hawker Britton to navigate federal policymaking and recruited trained clinicians to present to influential medical organizations. This combination of scientific rigor, widespread grassroots engagement, compelling personal testimonials, and persistent strategic advocacy overcame regulatory inertia and established Australia as a global leader in clinical psychedelic-assisted therapies.
Mind Medicine Australia co-founded the Mind Medicine Australia Clinic in partnership with Inconnex, serving as a test case for best-practice protocols. As of mid-2026, over 120 psychiatrists have gained Authorized Prescriber status, and a network of 20+ clinics has emerged across Australia, largely staffed by MMA-trained clinicians. Patient numbers have scaled from just a handful initially to nearly 400, with projections suggesting up to 5,000 may be treated in coming years.
To address financial barriers, MMA established a Patient Support Fund targeting $2.5 million through donations from founders and philanthropists, making therapies accessible to veterans, first responders, and others with limited resources. The Department of Veterans Affairs now supports veteran treatments, and the National Disability Insurance Scheme covers eligible patients. Medibank, Australia's largest private health insurer, offers substantial benefits to Gold members. Treatment costs range from AU$8,000 to AU$25,000, with the overwhelming expense deriving from clinician time rather than medication costs.
MMA funds a real-world evidence registry at the Australian National University, led by Professor Paul Fitzgerald, collecting baseline and outcome data from every treated patient with complete academic independence. All treatment sessions are now video recorded to facilitate quality assurance, supervision, and the possibility of eventually reducing costs by using one therapist plus video monitoring instead of always requiring two.
Recognizing that sustainable outcomes require more than dosing sessions, MMA develops integration services including nutrition and exercise guidance, and encourages group integration, which Tim Ferriss notes has shown lower costs and often superior outcomes compared to individual integration. Clinician training incorporates diverse approaches including Internal Family Systems and trauma modalities, ensuring protocols can be tailored to patient needs.
More than 400 Australian patients with treatment-resistant depression and PTSD have received MDMA or psilocybin therapy, with remission rates ranging from 60% to 80%—a dramatic improvement over the 10% to 15% remission rate for existing treatments. Tania de Jong cites a 68% remission rate that actually improved over time, rising from 54% post-treatment to 68% six months later. Unlike antidepressants that plateau, psychedelic-assisted therapy achieves ongoing gains with solid integration work and lifestyle changes. Across more than 400 treated patients, no serious adverse events have been reported to the TGA.
MAPS research indicates these therapies could yield over $100,000 in lifetime savings per patient, far justifying upfront costs of approximately AUD $25,000 per treatment. For health policymakers, this economic argument—combined with the humanitarian imperative of helping millions suffering from treatment-resistant conditions—makes a compelling case for accessibility.
Evidence shows that positive effects not only persist but actually improve after the final dose when patients engage in integration therapy and adopt healthier lifestyles. This contrasts sharply with the plateau effect in antidepressant therapy and highlights the deeper healing process associated with post-psychedelic integration work. Independent patient registries tracking these outcomes provide robust evidence for government support and payer coverage decisions.
De Jong describes encountering opposition from researchers who prioritized prolonged studies over clinical implementation, and skepticism from clinicians who questioned non-clinician entrepreneurs entering medical spaces. She emphasizes that anyone pioneering major change should expect personal attacks and must develop resilience while maintaining compassion and relying on evidence-based arguments.
Tania de Jong recognizes that Mind Medicine Australia's intense communications sometimes overwhelmed and annoyed decision-makers, noting that overly aggressive outreach can close doors rather than open them. Another mistake was recruiting staff with unresolved mental health issues who weren't ready for demanding advocacy work, underscoring the need for more careful hiring. Despite these missteps, she insists that relentless persistence was necessary for eventual success.
Core success factors included authenticity and personal connection—de Jong's willingness to share her personal transformation and memorable acts like singing at conferences helped forge strong bonds with influential figures. Refusing to accept "no" by persistently addressing concerns proved crucial, as did cultivating relationships with decision-makers early and maintaining consistent professional engagement.
De Jong recommends requesting support directly from top researchers and clinicians, who often say yes to good causes when approached personally. Advocates should combine grassroots mobilization with top-down engagement, emphasize regulatory risk—particularly the risks of inaction—and harness personal stories alongside robust data to create a compelling case for change.
1-Page Summary
Tania de Jong first becomes intrigued by psychedelics in 2015 after years of following Tim Ferriss's blog and appreciating his biohacking experiments. Having never drunk coffee, consumed alcohol, or taken drugs, Tanya reads an entry in Ferriss’s “Five Bullet Friday” blog describing his $100,000 donation to Johns Hopkins for psilocybin depression research. This moment is a light bulb for Tania. She follows the link to Michael Pollan’s New Yorker article, “The Trip Treatment,” and is deeply drawn in by the potential for healing described there.
Motivated, Tania shares Pollan’s article with her husband, Peter. Though initially skeptical, he reads the article and suggests they try to participate in a clinical trial. This marks the beginning of their pursuit of a first-hand psychedelic experience.
Tanya and Peter ultimately arrange to take psilocybin with a professional guide in the Netherlands. Nervous and wary, Tanya writes to her accountant beforehand with instructions for her final wishes, never having taken any psychoactive substances before.
The guide’s standard protocol involves combining dried psilocybin mushrooms (approximately 2 to 2.5 grams, sometimes up to 3 grams depending on the journey) with Syrian rue (Peganum harmala), which is an MAOI. This combination, called "Siluosca," amplifies and extends the effects of the psilocybin, making the experience more akin to ayahuasca. Tanya describes the Syrian rue as relaxing at first, but also greatly intensifying the experience—delivering more vivid visuals and deeper effects than psilocybin alone.
During the session, the onset comes after about 30 minutes. Tanya feels tingling in her hands and feet and, soon, an overwhelming kaleidoscope of colors and patterns. The experience is described as “challenging” and “beautiful,” stirring deep ancestral material for Tanya and evoking a sense of profound connection. She sees nature entirely differently afterward, detecting energy in every seashell, leaf, and blade of grass. She says, “Once the doors of perception are open, you can never shut them again,” quoting Aldous Huxley to illustrate her point.
The mystical experience brings Tanya and Peter closer together, shifting their relationship in unanticipated and positive ways. Despite initially claiming she would never repeat such an intense experience, its depth compels her to reconsider. They return to the Netherlands for a higher-dose journey, which is even more transformative. Tanya notes the experiences enable her to achieve other transcendental states more easily through meditation and singi ...
Personal Inspiration and Psychedelic Journey
The campaign to reschedule MDMA and psilocybin in Australia is characterized by persistent advocacy, strategic public engagement, and deep professional networks. The multifaceted approach combined scientific leadership, grassroots mobilization, clinician training, public submissions, and expert lobbying to overcome repeated regulatory setbacks and ultimately achieve historic policy change.
A cornerstone of the campaign was assembling a world-class advisory panel consisting of approximately 75 leading researchers, scientists, advocates, and clinicians in the psychedelic medicine field. This included prominent names such as David Nutt and Robin Carhart-Harris, among others invited by Tania de Jong after connecting with them at global conferences. The advisory panel featured internationally renowned faculty for Mind Medicine Australia’s Certificate in Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy, with teaching contributions from experts like Bessel van der Kolk, Gabor Maté, Bill Richards, Rick Doblin, Jim Wolfson, and Wade Davis. This scientific and academic leadership lent vital credibility to the cause.
Grassroots support was built by establishing over 30 local chapters across Australia, in communities from Byron Bay and Brisbane to Darwin and Perth. These chapters created a nationwide mobilization structure, generating local engagement and activism behind the campaign for rescheduling.
Central to building a professional constituency, Mind Medicine Australia began training clinicians through their certificate program in psychedelic-assisted therapy beginning in 2021. Within a short period, over 750 clinicians—psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors, nurses, occupational therapists, social workers, and counselors—were certified, giving rise to a strong base of advocates within medical and allied health fields. This rapidly expanding community began to exert pressure on peak professional bodies and influence public health conversations.
The campaign made strategic use of public submission processes and high-visibility educational initiatives. During a key public consultation period, a major effort was launched to educate and mobilize stakeholders across society, through thousands of presentations to politicians, health professionals, business leaders, and community members, along with a webinar series featuring world-renowned experts. Mind Medicine Australia provided templates and guidance to make submission participation accessible, leveraging the network of local volunteers.
As a result, over 13,000 Australians submitted supporting statements to the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), with more than 98% in favor of rescheduling MDMA and psilocybin. This became the largest medicine rescheduling public response in TGA history, creating significant regulatory pressure.
Internationally recognized researchers, such as David Nutt from Imperial College London, were brought to Australia for extensive speaking tours. Sponsored by commercial partners, these tours included packed town halls and events in Byron Bay, Sydney, Melbourne, and Canberra. Nutt also spoke at the launch of Mind Medicine Australia at the University of Melbourne and returned frequently for public and institutional events.
A pivotal moment came during a high-stakes meeting at the TGA. Alongside Professor Nutt, Vanessa, the widow of a man named Franco who died by suicide after being denied psychedelic-assisted therapy, spoke movingly about her husband’s clinical journey, the comprehensive but unsuccessful efforts to help him, and her belief that access to these therapies could have saved his life. This humanized the consequences of regulatory inaction, profoundly affecting policymakers in attendance.
From late 2020 onwards, Mind Medicine Australia submitted multiple applications to the TGA for rescheduling. Each time, applications were rejected at interim and final stages despite strong public and scientific backing. Tania de Jong and her husband systematically analyzed the TGA’s rejection reasons, crafting increasingly detailed and responsive resubmissions that directly addressed regulatory concerns. For example, they successfully advocated for broader practitioner eligibility, expanding the criteria beyond clinical psychologists.
Throughout each setback, persistent communication with TGA leadership—including direct calls when needed—helped address bureaucratic bot ...
Regulatory Strategy and Campaign Tactics
Mind Medicine Australia (MMA) is constructing a comprehensive framework to deliver, fund, monitor, and improve access to psychedelic-assisted therapies across Australia, with a strong emphasis on clinical rigor, financial accessibility, data quality, and holistic patient integration.
MMA has co-founded the Mind Medicine Australia Clinic in partnership with Inconnex, a publicly listed company. Located in Abbotsford, Melbourne, the clinic serves as a test case for building best-practice protocols, clinical supervision, and flexible approaches to psychedelic-assisted therapy. This clinic benefits from the support and hands-on involvement of MMA-trained clinicians, providing a space for graduates of MMA’s training programs to gain direct experience and supervision.
Australia has seen remarkable progress in its clinical infrastructure for psychedelic therapies. As of early 2024, only one or two psychiatrists were authorized to prescribe MDMA and psilocybin; by mid-2026, over 120 psychiatrists have gained Authorized Prescriber status through applications evaluated by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) and independent ethics committees. This rapid expansion is further reflected in the network of 20+ clinics across Australia, largely staffed by MMA-trained clinicians, and serving as nodes in MMA's vision of "clinic in a box" standardized protocols adapted flexibly to diverse clinical needs.
Patient access has expanded, with the number of treated individuals scaling from just a handful in the first year to nearly 400, with conservative projections suggesting that up to 5,000 may be treated in the coming years—a fraction of potential national need but a significant rise enabled by this growing infrastructure.
Financial barriers remain a significant concern, especially for vulnerable populations. To address this, MMA has established a Patient Support Fund, seeded and maintained through donations from founders Tania de Jong and Peter, other philanthropists, and public fundraising efforts. The fund is targeting $2.5 million to make therapies accessible to veterans, first responders, single mothers, and others with limited financial resources, with tax-deductible options for donors.
MMA has also proactively engaged major payers to subsidize or cover treatment costs. The Department of Veterans Affairs now supports veteran treatments, and the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) covers patients under its remit. Medibank, Australia's largest private health insurer, offers substantial benefits—eligible Gold members have nearly all costs covered except for a small out-of-pocket expense, prompting many to switch to Medibank for access.
Treatment costs are a challenge, with courses starting at AU$8,000 (about US$5,000) and running up to AU$15,000 for three-dosage regimens, and as much as AU$25,000 (US$15,000) for extended protocols. The overwhelming share of this cost derives from clinician time: involved, lengthy dosing sessions and the presence of two therapists for safety. MMA has succeeded in keeping medication costs as low as possible, recognizing that the fundamental expense is in therapist expertise and time, not in the manufacture or import of the compounds themselves.
MMA has prioritized comprehensive, independent evaluation of patient outcomes. The organization funds a real-world evidence registry at the Australian National University (ANU), led by Professor Paul Fitzgerald. This registry collects baseline and outcome data from every treated patient, and MMA maintains no influence on study design, curation, or reporting—ensuring academic rigor and unbiased insight. This evidence is critical to advancing the field and influencing future policy, with ongoing data collection and the expectation of published results as patient numbers grow.
To ensure quality standards and optimize costs, all treatment sessions are now video recorded. This practice not only facilitates quality assurance, supervision, and cohort learning, but also opens the possibility of reduci ...
Building the Ecosystem For Treatment
Psychedelic-assisted therapy is emerging as a transformative approach for individuals with treatment-resistant depression and PTSD, displaying outcomes that far surpass those from standard care, while also offering compelling economic advantages and sustained benefits post-treatment.
In Australia, more than 400 patients have received MDMA or psilocybin-assisted therapy at authorized prescriber clinics—the majority with long-standing, severe PTSD or depression for which conventional treatments had failed. Tim Ferriss highlights that psychedelics are often viewed as a last hope for patients who have exhausted all other interventions. The MAPS phase two data shows participants had on average endured their conditions for 16–17 years, yet many saw complete remission after only two or three therapy sessions.
Remission rates for these therapies range from 60% to 80%, a dramatic improvement compared to the 10% to 15% remission rate documented for existing treatments for PTSD and depression. Tania de Jong points out the Australian results mirror international trials and specifically cites a 68% remission rate. Notably, the effect does not plateau as it often does with antidepressants: remission rates improved with time and integration work, rising from 54% post-treatment to 68% six months later.
Unlike antidepressants, where initial improvement generally plateaus and may require dosage changes or new medications, psychedelic-assisted therapy achieves ongoing gains, especially with solid engagement in post-session psychotherapy and integration. Making positive lifestyle changes—such as improved nutrition, exercise, and rebuilding healthy social connections—plays a crucial role in these sustained improvements. Importantly, across more than 400 treated patients, no serious adverse events have been reported to the Therapeutic Goods Administration, underscoring the clinical safety observed during Australia’s first two years of authorized treatment.
The impressive clinical outcomes are complemented by strong evidence for cost savings. MAPS research presents an economic model indicating that these therapies could yield over $100,000 in lifetime savings per patient, far justifying their significant upfront costs (approximately AUD $25,000 per treatment). Standard treatments, by contrast, often incur long-term costs with little effectiveness for treatment-resistant populations.
These findings are highly relevant for health policymakers and government agencies. When weighing risks, decision-makers are now compelled to consider both the danger of clinical inaction—leaving desperate, treatment-resistant patients without viable options—and the controlled, monitored risks of clinical psychedelic use. As millions in Australia, and globally, suffer from PTSD and depression without adequate relief, the economic and humanitarian argument for making such therapies accessible grows only more forceful.
Treatment Outcomes and Real-World Evidence
Tania de Jong and her team’s experience in advocating for regulatory change in psychedelic-assisted mental health treatments offers valuable lessons, highlighting both strategies for success and pitfalls to avoid for those seeking to replicate such reforms internationally.
Advocacy in the nuanced field of mental healthcare involves navigating significant entrenched opposition. De Jong describes encountering vested interests from researchers, some of whom prioritized prolonged studies over clinical implementation due to funding security and institutional advantages. Researchers sometimes pushed to replicate trials already conducted elsewhere, delaying broader access to treatments. These delays led to personal confrontations, with some researchers attacking de Jong's team for challenging the status quo.
Non-clinician entrepreneurs like Tania de Jong and her husband Peter faced additional resistance for stepping into medical spaces traditionally dominated by clinicians. Their efforts to change regulation met with skepticism and at times, personal and vicious attacks. De Jong reflects on the resilience required to persist in the face of such hostility, drawing on her family's history of perseverance and survival. She emphasizes that anyone pioneering major change should expect opposition and must develop resilience while maintaining compassion and relying on evidence-based arguments rather than responding in kind to personal attacks.
Tania de Jong recognizes certain advocacy missteps that can hinder progress. One was overly aggressive outreach; Mind Medicine Australia's intense campaign included voluminous communications with regulatory staff and committees, which sometimes backfired by overwhelming and annoying decision-makers. De Jong notes that a highly forceful approach can close doors rather than open them and recommends recognizing when persistence becomes counterproductive.
Another mistake was in recruitment. The campaign attracted staff with unresolved mental health issues, as many were drawn to the organization because of their own lived experience. While inclusivity is valued, high-stress advocacy work requires team members who have achieved a level of stability and resilience. Challenges arose from employees who were not ready for such demanding roles, underscoring the need for more careful hiring and vetting.
Despite these missteps, de Jong insists that relentless persistence was necessary for their eventual success. However, campaigns for major change involve inevitable frustration and pushback, and advocates must remain committed through repeated setbacks.
A core success factor was authenticity and personal connection. De Jong’s willingness to share her personal transformation convinced leading researchers of her credibility, even those who might have initially dismissed her as an outsider. Memorable acts, like singing at conferences, helped her forge strong bonds with influential figures, opening doors that formal qualifications alone could not.
Refusing to accept "no" by persisten ...
Lessons and Blueprint for Global Replication
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