566. The Meaning Of: There’s No Such Thing as a Dragon
In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Peterson examines the symbolism of dragons in human psychology and mythology. Using a dragon sculpture as a starting point, he explores how these composite creatures represent both the dangers and opportunities found in the unknown, while drawing connections to Egyptian mythology and biblical narratives about confronting fears and maintaining balance between order and chaos.
Through the metaphor of a growing dragon in a household, Peterson illustrates how denial operates in families and institutions. The discussion shows how refusing to acknowledge problems leads to their escalation, while confronting issues early—as demonstrated through stories of figures like Horus and biblical characters—can transform overwhelming challenges into manageable situations. Peterson explains the consequences of willful blindness and the importance of addressing problems when they first emerge.
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1-Page Summary
Dragons as Symbols of Threats and the Unknown
Peterson explores dragons as powerful metaphors in human psychology, describing them as composite creatures that embody both threats and the allure of the unexplored. Using a dragon sculpture that blends bird and snake elements, he explains how dragons represent the "unknown predator" - encompassing both the dangers and potential rewards of exploring the wilderness.
Mythological and Biblical Parables on Human Condition and Denial
Peterson discusses the Egyptian myth of Osiris, Seth, and Horus to illustrate how denial enables destructive forces. In the story, Osiris represents order but ignores his brother Seth, who embodies chaos. This willful blindness leads to Osiris's downfall. His son Horus later emerges as a figure who confronts the unknown, fighting Seth to restore balance.
Drawing parallels to biblical narratives, Peterson explains how the bronze serpent story from Exodus demonstrates the power of facing one's fears. He connects this to Christian symbolism, where confronting evil through Christ's crucifixion leads to redemption.
Psychological and Social Dynamics of Denial
Using the metaphor of a growing dragon, Peterson illustrates how denial operates in families and institutions. He describes a mother who refuses to acknowledge a dragon in her house, even as it grows larger and more disruptive. The story concludes with Billy, who represents Horus, confronting the dragon directly. Through this engagement, the once-overwhelming dragon becomes manageable, demonstrating how addressing problems early prevents their escalation into crises.
Peterson emphasizes that willful blindness to emerging problems can devastate both households and institutions, underlining the importance of confronting issues when they first appear rather than allowing them to grow unchecked.
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Counterarguments
- The interpretation of dragons as symbols might not be universal; different cultures may have varying representations and meanings attached to dragons that do not align with the threat-unknown paradigm.
- The story of Osiris, Seth, and Horus can be interpreted in multiple ways, and the emphasis on denial might overlook other themes such as the complexity of governance, mortality, and rebirth.
- The application of mythological stories to modern psychology could be seen as an oversimplification of complex psychological and social phenomena.
- The bronze serpent story and its connection to facing fears might not resonate with individuals from different religious or cultural backgrounds, who may have alternative interpretations or find no significance in the narrative.
- The idea that confronting evil leads to redemption is a religious concept that may not hold the same meaning or value outside of Christian symbolism.
- The metaphor of a growing dragon in a household or institution may not accurately capture the nuanced ways in which denial and problem recognition operate in real-world scenarios.
- The notion that addressing problems early always prevents their escalation might be overly simplistic, as some issues are complex and require more than just early intervention.
- The concept of willful blindness might not account for other factors that contribute to the failure of households and institutions, such as systemic issues, resource constraints, or external pressures.
Actionables
- You can create a "dragon diary" to identify and confront personal fears. Start by writing down situations that cause you anxiety or fear, no matter how small. Reflect on why these situations make you feel this way and brainstorm steps you can take to face them. For example, if public speaking terrifies you, your first step might be to talk to a small group of friends before gradually increasing the audience size.
- Develop a "chaos checklist" for your household or workplace to prevent willful blindness. List areas that often get overlooked or ignored, such as finances, maintenance, or relationships. Schedule regular reviews of this checklist to ensure that small problems are addressed before they grow. If you notice that household chores are frequently neglected, set up a weekly cleaning schedule that involves all family members.
- Engage in a "mythical mapping" exercise to better understand your life's challenges. Draw a map that represents your life, with areas of stability marked as familiar territories and challenges as uncharted lands or 'dragons'. Use this map to strategize ways to explore these 'unknown territories' safely. For instance, if changing careers feels like an uncharted territory, start by researching the new field and talking to professionals already in it.
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Dragons as Symbols of Threats and the Unknown
Dragons stand as powerful metaphors for the fearsome and the unfamiliar in human psyche. Peterson delves into the imagery of dragons, exploring their composite nature and their role in embodying both threats and the allure of the unexplored.
Dragons Embody Primal Threats Like Birds, Snakes, and Cats
Dragons Symbolize the "Unknown Predator" of Perilous Wilderness, Embodying Dangers and Benefits Of Exploring the Unexplored
Peterson describes a dragon sculpture he owns that features a blend of bird, dragon, and snake elements. He interprets the dragon as a representation of everything that is unknown, holding both the dangers and great potential rewards, much like a predator lurking in the wild. The amalgamation of these fears and promises encapsulated by the dragon is a long-standing motif in ancient narratives.
Dragon as a Symbolic Archetype in Enduring Narratives
Dragon Motif: Overcoming Threats For Reward and Personal Growth
Continuing with the theme of dragons in narratives, Peterson speaks about the creature's tendency to grow so large that it introduces chaos instead of harmony, becoming an emergent, unaddressed issue w ...
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Dragons as Symbols of Threats and the Unknown
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Counterarguments
- While dragons often symbolize the unknown and fearsome, in some cultures, they are seen as benevolent or protective beings rather than threats.
- The interpretation of dragons as embodying primal threats may be overly simplistic, as the symbolism of dragons is rich and varied across different cultures and can represent wisdom, power, or natural forces, not just fear or danger.
- The idea that dragons represent an "unknown predator" could be a projection of human fears and may not encompass the full range of what dragons have symbolized historically or mythologically.
- The notion that dragons grow so large they introduce chaos instead of harmony might not align with narratives where dragons are guardians or sources of wisdom and order.
- The ouroboros is not exclusively a symbol of self-destruction; in some interpretations, it represents the cyclical nature of life, eternity, and the ...
Actionables
- You can create a personal "dragon journal" to identify and confront your fears. Start by writing down what you perceive as unknown or frightening in your life, akin to the metaphorical dragons. Reflect on these entries regularly and note any changes in your perception, documenting how confronting these fears leads to personal growth or insights.
- Develop a "dragon challenge" habit where you commit to one small action daily that pushes you out of your comfort zone. This could be as simple as initiating a conversation with a stranger, trying a new food, or learning a new skill. The key is to do something that represents the unknown, allowing you to experience the rewards of exploration and personal courage.
- Craft a symbolic dragon sculpture using everyday materials lik ...
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Mythological and Biblical Parables on Human Condition and Denial
Egyptian Myth of Osiris, Seth, and Horus Shows Denial Allows Malevolent Forces to Overthrow Stability
Jordan Peterson discusses the enduring moral lessons presented in the story of Osiris, Seth, and Horus from Egyptian mythology.
Hero Osiris Represents Rightful Authority and Order, While Brother Seth Symbolizes Chaos and Destruction That Osiris Refuses to Acknowledge
In this tale, Egypt's founded by a heroic god named Osiris, who represents rightful authority and order. Osiris is willfully blind to his brother Seth, embodying chaos and destruction akin to a dragon-like force intent on overthrowing the state. Seth eventually overtakes Osiris by dismembering him and scattering the pieces across Egypt. Peterson suggests that ignoring problems enables them to grow into devastating forces.
Horus, Son of Osiris, Embodies Facing and Mastering the Unknown, Personified by Seth, to Restore Balance and Governance
Osiris's legacy is continued by his son Horus, born through the queen of the underworld: Isis, who miraculously conceives with a part of Osiris. Horus represents the vision and courage required to confront malevolence, embodied by Seth. Horus, after maturing away from his malevolent uncle's influence, returns for a gruesome battle against Seth, suffering but ultimately succeeding, even at the cost of losing an eye. In a twist of fate, instead of claiming rulership, Horus heals his father Osiris with his own eye, metaphorically restoring the state’s sight and equilibrium.
Biblical Lesson: Confronting the Toxic Leads To Healing and Redemption
Bronze Serpent on a Pole Symbolizes Facing Fears to Gain Strength
The hosts draw a parallel with a biblical narrative from Exodus, where the Israelites' journey from tyranny to a promised land is plagued by deadly snakes. To ove ...
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Mythological and Biblical Parables on Human Condition and Denial
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Counterarguments
- The interpretation of mythological stories, like that of Osiris, Seth, and Horus, can vary widely, and different cultures or scholars might offer alternative readings that do not emphasize the theme of denial but perhaps focus on other aspects such as fertility, resurrection, or the cyclical nature of time.
- The idea that ignoring problems allows them to grow into devastating forces might be overly simplistic, as sometimes problems can resolve on their own without intervention, or attention can exacerbate them.
- The notion that facing and mastering the unknown always leads to restoration and balance might not account for situations where confrontation leads to further chaos or unresolved conflict.
- The interpretation of Horus's actions as purely beneficial could be challenged by perspectives that see his vengeance and violence as part of a perpetuating cycle of conflict.
- The bronze serpent narrative can be interpreted in various ways within different theological frameworks, and not all traditions may agree with the interpretation that it symbolizes facing fears to gain strength.
- The connection between the bronze serpent and Christ's crucifixion might not be universally accepted among ...
Actionables
- You can journal about a personal challenge each week to actively confront and understand your fears. By writing down the problems you face, you're symbolically facing your own version of Seth, acknowledging the chaos, and beginning the process of restoring order. For example, if you're anxious about public speaking, journal about the specific fears and imagine scenarios where you overcome them.
- Create a "fear ladder" to gradually expose yourself to a fear and gain strength from each encounter. Start with a situation that causes you mild anxiety and work your way up to more challenging scenarios. If you're afraid of heights, your ladder might begin with standing on a chair, progress to climbing a ladder, and eventually lead to visiting the top floor of a tall building.
- Voluntee ...
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Psychological and Social Dynamics of Denial in Families and Institutions
Jordan Peterson discusses the dangers of denial within families and institutions, using the metaphor of a dragon to symbolize ignored problems that grow into crises.
Ignoring Emerging Problems Leads To Unmanageable Crises
Denial Stems From Rigid Attachment To an Idealized Reality Despite Contradictory Evidence
Peterson narrates a situation in a family where the mother denies the existence of a problem, represented by a dragon. Despite the physical evidence of the dragon's presence, the mother maintains her belief that nothing is wrong. Her denial is characterized as a rigid attachment to an idealized version of reality.
Neglecting Early Problems Leads To Escalation, Disrupting Households or Organizations
The dragon grows as it is ignored, increasingly disrupting the household's routines. Peterson describes the mother having to climb in and out of windows just to navigate her own home, burdened by the dragon's presence. The ignored problems escalate, representing a looming crisis within the home, with the mother putting up with needless trouble to maintain her illusion of normality.
Confronting Willful Blindness and Threats: Billy's Heroic Stand Against the Dragon's Reality
Engaging the Unknown Tames or Transforms It
Peterson presents the story of Billy, a representation of Horus from Egyptian myth, who is the hero that confronts the growing problem— the dragon. Unlike the mother, Billy does not ignore the dragon; he interacts with it voluntarily. This engagement leads to the dragon, once a dominating presence in the home, becoming smaller and manageable, symbolizing that direct confrontation can tame or transform an issue.
Eventually ...
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Psychological and Social Dynamics of Denial in Families and Institutions
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Clarifications
- The metaphorical use of a dragon to symbolize ignored problems is a literary device where a dragon represents a significant issue or threat that is being overlooked or denied by individuals or groups. In this context, the dragon's growth and impact mirror how unresolved problems can escalate and disrupt families or institutions when not addressed promptly. By visualizing the ignored problem as a dragon, the narrative emphasizes the potential dangers of denial and the importance of confronting issues before they become unmanageable crises.
- Horus is an ancient Egyptian deity, often depicted as a falcon-headed god. In Egyptian mythology, he symbolizes kingship, sky, and protection. Horus is associated with power, victory, and the sun, representing the triumph of good over evil. Jordan Peterson uses the character of Horus to illustrate bravery and heroism in confronting challenges directly.
- Willful blindness in this context refers to the conscious de ...
Counterarguments
- While confronting problems early is often beneficial, not all issues can be resolved through direct confrontation; some may require more nuanced approaches or may resolve themselves over time without intervention.
- The metaphor of the dragon may oversimplify complex psychological and social dynamics, failing to account for the multifaceted reasons behind denial and the varied strategies needed to address different types of problems.
- The narrative may underestimate the value of patience and timing in addressing issues; immediate confrontation is not always the most effective strategy, and in some cases, it may exacerbate the problem.
- The idea that denial stems from a rigid attachment to an idealized reality might not encompass all reasons for denial, which can also include fear, lack of resources, or external pressures that make acknowledgment of the problem difficult.
- The focus on individual heroism in confronting problems may overlook the importance of collective action and support systems in managing and resolving crises.
- The assumption that institutions become ineffectual due to negativity and disarray within households may not account for broader systemic issues that can impair institutional effectiveness.
- The emphasis on willful blindness may not fully recognize unconscious biases and cognitive lim ...
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