Podcasts > The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast > 560. When Does Masculinity Become Toxic? | David French

560. When Does Masculinity Become Toxic? | David French

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In this episode of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, David French joins Peterson to examine the challenges facing young men in modern society. They discuss how the absence of male mentors, particularly in fatherless homes, combined with cultural messages about masculinity and changes in education, affects young men's development and sense of purpose.

The conversation explores potential solutions through mentorship and leadership models. French and Peterson analyze various contributing factors to these challenges, including the current school system, over-structured childhoods, and political responses to gender gaps. They address the importance of guiding young men toward constructive expressions of masculinity while considering the impact of economic and technological changes on male identity.

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560. When Does Masculinity Become Toxic? | David French

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560. When Does Masculinity Become Toxic? | David French

1-Page Summary

Crisis for Young Men: Lack of Mentorship, Demoralized Masculinity

David French and Jordan Peterson discuss a growing crisis among young men characterized by a lack of direction and purpose. French observes this pattern both in his son's peer group and during his time mentoring young soldiers. According to French, the absence of male role models, particularly in fatherless homes, leaves young men vulnerable to harmful influences and without guidance. Peterson adds that the current school system, with its shortage of male teachers, may be contributing to this problem.

Cultural Impact and Societal Messages

French explains that young men are increasingly alienated by cultural messages that label traditional masculinity as toxic, leading to a crisis of identity and self-worth. Peterson illustrates this point with his son's self-deprecating comment, "I'm doing pretty well for a boy," highlighting how negative assumptions about male performance have become internalized. The situation is further complicated by economic and technological changes that make many men feel unnecessary in society.

Factors Behind Young Men's Challenges

The discussion explores various contributing factors to young men's struggles. French and Peterson criticize the political exploitation of gender gaps, with Peterson pointing to the Democrats' recent $20 million initiative to address their "man problem" as evidence of the political class's failure to understand young men's needs. They also express concern about the overprescription of [restricted term], particularly for boys, with Peterson arguing that it suppresses natural play behaviors crucial for development. French reflects on the contrast between his generation's free-range childhood and today's over-structured environment.

Models of Virtuous Masculinity and Mentorship

French identifies a strong need for constructive mentoring of young men in America, citing Admiral William McRaven's "Make Up Your Bed" speech as an example of impactful male leadership. Peterson discusses the importance of role models who combine "monstrous power" with "self-sacrificial service." French emphasizes that effective mentorship involves treating young men as adults and guiding them toward virtuous masculinity that isn't defined by superficial measures of success.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The crisis among young men might be more complex than a simple lack of direction and purpose, involving a range of social, economic, and psychological factors.
  • The absence of male role models is significant, but it's also important to recognize the positive impact that female role models can have on young men.
  • The shortage of male teachers is a concern, but the quality of education and the pedagogical approach may be more influential than the gender of the teacher.
  • While some cultural messages may label traditional masculinity as toxic, there is a growing movement to redefine masculinity in a positive and inclusive way.
  • The internalization of negative assumptions about male performance can be countered by positive reinforcement and diverse examples of successful men in various fields.
  • Economic and technological changes pose challenges but also offer new opportunities for men to find purpose and redefine their roles in society.
  • Political initiatives to address gender gaps may not always be well-targeted, but they can also lead to positive changes and increased awareness of gender issues.
  • The concern about the overprescription of [restricted term] is valid, but medication can be beneficial when appropriately prescribed and monitored.
  • While there is nostalgia for a free-range childhood, structured environments can also provide safety and opportunities for learning and development.
  • The need for mentorship is not exclusive to young men; young women also benefit from mentorship, and mentorship programs should be inclusive.
  • Role models with "monstrous power" and "self-sacrificial service" may not resonate with all young men, and a variety of role models should be presented to cater to diverse interests and values.
  • Effective mentorship should be flexible and recognize that there are multiple ways to define and achieve virtuous masculinity.

Actionables

  • You can volunteer as a mentor at local youth organizations to provide guidance and support to young men seeking direction. By sharing your experiences and offering advice, you can help fill the gap left by the absence of male role models. For example, join a program like Big Brothers Big Sisters and commit to regular meetings with your mentee, focusing on building their confidence and helping them set personal goals.
  • Start a book club focused on literature that portrays positive male figures and virtues. Invite young men from your community to discuss characters and stories that exemplify self-sacrifice, courage, and responsibility. This can help counteract negative cultural messages about masculinity and provide a space for constructive conversation about what it means to be a man today.
  • Encourage play and exploration by organizing informal sports or adventure groups in your neighborhood. This can be as simple as setting up a weekly game of basketball or planning a hiking trip. These activities can help young men engage in natural play behaviors and foster a sense of camaraderie and teamwork, which are crucial for their development.

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560. When Does Masculinity Become Toxic? | David French

Crisis for Young Men: Lack of Mentorship, Demoralized Masculinity

David French and Jordan Peterson discuss a crisis plaguing young men: a lack of direction, mentorship, and a demoralizing view of masculinity within society.

Young Men Lack Purpose, Direction, and Belonging Due to Missing Male Role Models and Mentors

David French voices a significant problem faced by many young men—lacking purpose and direction—a situation he has observed within his son's peer group and during his time mentoring younger soldiers in the military. Many young men, especially after leaving structured environments like the military, tend to wander aimlessly, struggling to find their place in the world. French emphasizes that this absence of purpose is often due to a lack of male role models as many young men grow up in fatherless homes. He underscores the importance of mentoring young men into virtuous masculinity to provide them with a sense of purpose, direction, and belonging.

Jordan Peterson also adds that the current school system seems unfit for boys, noting the paucity of male teachers might contribute to the lack of suitable male role models, potentially leaving young men particularly vulnerable.

Fatherless Homes Leave Young Men Vulnerable to Harmful Influences

French points out the struggle of young men, many of whom grow up without fathers or male mentors. The implications of this lack of guidance are profound: young men become susceptible to harmful influences, with some finding hyper-aggressive role models appealing due to a dearth of positive examples.

Young Men Feel Alienated by Cultural Messages Labeling Traditional Masculinity As Toxic

Cultural messages that label traditional masculinity as toxic affect young men's self-worth, according to French. This portrayal leads young men to internalize the idea that they are inherently the problem. Such negative messages have a profound impact on young men's goals, dreams, and aspirations. Peterson mentions his son's self-deprecating comment, "I'm doing pretty well for a boy," which reflects how the presumption that boys underperform girls has become internalized, leading to alienation.

Demoralizing Masculinity Causes Identity and Self-Worth Crises Among Young Men

French touches on the loneliness and lack of belonging among young men and how society's negative view of traditional masculinity leads to them being treated as the problem. This sentiment is accentuated by a comment ...

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Crisis for Young Men: Lack of Mentorship, Demoralized Masculinity

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • The lack of purpose and direction in young men may not solely be attributed to a lack of male role models; other factors such as economic conditions, educational opportunities, and personal choices also play significant roles.
  • The concept of traditional masculinity is not universally defined and can vary greatly across cultures and individuals; thus, labeling it as universally toxic may be an oversimplification.
  • Some argue that the crisis in young men's identity and self-worth could also be influenced by broader societal changes, such as the shift towards a more digital and less physically interactive society.
  • The idea that only male role models can provide mentorship to young men is challenged by the success of mentorship from individuals of all genders.
  • The assertion that society views traditional masculinity negatively may not take into account the nuanced perspectives that exist, which often criticize only certain toxic traits rather than masculinity as a whole.
  • The focus on traditional masculinity may overlook the benefits of embracing a more diverse range of masculine expressions and the positive e ...

Actionables

  • You can start a personal journal to explore and redefine your understanding of masculinity, focusing on positive traits and how they manifest in your daily life. By writing down your thoughts and experiences, you can identify which aspects of traditional masculinity are beneficial and which are harmful, creating a balanced perspective for yourself. For example, you might write about times when being assertive helped you achieve a goal, or when showing vulnerability led to stronger relationships.
  • Volunteer as a mentor for youth programs in your community to provide guidance and support to young men who may lack positive male role models. Through mentoring, you can share your experiences, listen to their concerns, and help them navigate challenges while fostering a healthy view of masculinity. For instance, you could join a local Big Brothers Big Sisters program and spend time with a young person, teaching them skills, offering advice, and simply being a consistent presence in their life.
  • Create a book club with friends or colleagues ...

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560. When Does Masculinity Become Toxic? | David French

Factors Behind Young Men's Challenges

David French and Jordan Peterson discuss the series of cultural and political issues affecting young men, such as heightened levels of despair, anxiety, loneliness, and a lack of connection due to changing economies, diminishing value of traditional male attributes, and reduced military engagement. Moreover, they scrutinize the political exploitation of gender gaps and the cultural shifts that have left young men feeling alienated.

Political Exploitation of Gender Gaps Worsens Tensions Instead Of Fostering Collaboration

French is critical of the gender wars, specifically how political parties exploit gender gaps for political gain, creating a sense of cultural and political war rather than collaboration. Peterson reflects on a New York Times article about the Democrats' $20 million "man problem" and suggests that political efforts thus far may not have fully grasped or adequately addressed young men's challenges. He alludes to a virtual conspiracy that demoralizes boys and contributes to a narrative that has long been perpetuated by the Democrats, who are now dealing with the consequences. This commentary points to the failure of the political class to understand and support young men effectively.

Democrats' $20M Effort to Solve "Man Problem" Reveals Political Class's Failure to Understand Young Men

Peterson is taken aback by the positive tone of the New York Times article, which indicates that the Democrats might be reevaluating their approach to the issues facing young men. He mentions that future spending should be more effectively directed towards addressing their plights. French also criticizes political strategies that he says fail to understand young men's situations, highlighting a disconnect between political actions and the real needs of these men.

Cultural Shifts and Loss of Free-Range Childhood Leave Young Men Alienated

Overprescription of [restricted term] Has Demoralized Boys By Suppressing Natural Play and Behavior

French and Peterson are critical of the widespread prescription of [restricted term] ([restricted term]) for children, particularly boys. French raises concerns about the medication's impact on suppressing natural behavior, which may be part of the problem facing young men. He argues that some could benefit from the medication but believes it's overprescribed.

Peterson harshly criticizes the u ...

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Factors Behind Young Men's Challenges

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Political parties may argue that addressing gender gaps is not exploitation but rather an attempt to rectify systemic inequalities and create a more equitable society.
  • Some may contend that the Democrats' $20 million initiative is a step towards recognizing and attempting to address the issues young men face, rather than a complete failure.
  • It could be argued that cultural shifts have also provided young men with new opportunities and ways of expression that were not available to previous generations.
  • The prescription of [restricted term] and similar medications is based on clinical evidence and professional healthcare guidelines, and for many individuals, these medications significantly improve quality of life and academic performance.
  • There is research suggesting that stimulant medications like [restricted term] can have a paradoxical calming effect on children with ADHD, helping them to focus and engage more effectively in various activities.
  • While there may be a lack of long-term studies on ADHD medications, the existing short- and medium-term research supports their efficacy and safety when properly prescribed and monitored. ...

Actionables

  • You can foster a more balanced perspective on gender politics by engaging in discussions with friends from diverse political backgrounds, aiming to understand their views without trying to change them. This helps break down echo chambers and allows for a more nuanced understanding of how gender issues are used in politics.
  • Encourage play and exploration in your community by setting up informal playgroups or meetups in local parks, where children can engage in unstructured play. This not only supports a play-based approach to childhood but also helps counteract the trend of overcautious parenting by providing a safe space for free-range experiences.
  • Start a book club focused ...

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560. When Does Masculinity Become Toxic? | David French

Models of Virtuous Masculinity and Mentorship for Young Men

David French identifies a significant demand in America for the constructive mentoring of young men and discusses the potential for a transformative impact through such guidance.

Young Men Seek Mentors and Role Models Offering Courageous, Compassionate, and Service-Oriented Masculinity

Admiral William McRaven is highlighted as an exemplary figure whose "Make Up Your Bed" speech made a wide-reaching impact, signaling the need for positive male role models. French also speaks about the influence of Jordan Peterson's work, like the "reboot" effect his book had on a young Marine by emphasizing daily intentional acts of kindness. French values the mentoring process, asserting that it involves treating young men as adults, which leads to their transformation.

Cultivating Virtuous Masculinity: Effort to Counter Undermining Forces

French discusses the importance of creating a counterculture that lovingly communicates to young men that they are valued and that their success is desired. He contrasts this positive message with toxic ones that indulge in the worst elements of human nature. Jordan Peterson's work reflects on the archetypal image of the shepherd from biblical writings—figures like Moses, David, and Christ who embody qualities of virtue and admirable masculinity. Peterson considers a model of masculinity that combines "monstrous power" with "self-sacrificial service."

French recounts the experiences of the latchkey generation, where autonomy led some to face challenges such as bullying and assault. He notes the vital influence of football coaches who can channel young men's aggression into positive qualities. Acknowledging that coaches can be the best or the worst influences, he praises those who promote brotherhood and citizenship over rage and violence.

French touches on fostering virtuous masculinity, asserting that young men yearn for this ful ...

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Models of Virtuous Masculinity and Mentorship for Young Men

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While young men may seek mentors offering courageous and compassionate masculinity, it's important to recognize that not all young men may prioritize these traits and may instead seek mentorship that aligns with other values or career-oriented goals.
  • The concept of virtuous masculinity, while well-intentioned, could be criticized for potentially reinforcing gender stereotypes or not accounting for the full spectrum of masculine expression.
  • Treating young men as adults is a valuable aspect of mentorship, but it's also crucial to acknowledge that young men may be at different stages of maturity and may require different approaches to mentorship.
  • While Jordan Peterson's work has been influential for many, it has also been controversial and criticized for various reasons, including perceived reinforcement of traditional gender roles.
  • The positive influence of football coaches or other authority figures in sports can be significant, but it's also important to consider the potential for negative influences and the pressure to conform to certain masculine ideals within these environments.
  • Guidance for young men that isn't tied to sexual prowess or financial success is important, but it's also necessary to recognize that these aspects c ...

Actionables

  • You can start a peer-led book club focused on literature that explores virtuous masculinity, where members discuss characters and narratives that embody courage, compassion, and service. By selecting books that delve into these themes, such as historical biographies or fiction with strong male protagonists, you create a space for reflection and conversation about what virtuous masculinity looks like in different contexts.
  • Volunteer as a mentor for a youth organization, emphasizing real-world skills and character development over competition and achievement. This could involve teaching practical life skills, like financial literacy or public speaking, while also discussing the importance of virtues like integrity and empathy. Your involvement would provide a model of masculinity that values personal growth and community service.
  • ...

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