#2536 - Eric Goode & Jeremy McBride

Wildlife trafficking is a vast and often underreported black market, supplying skins, medicine, pets, and food while facilitating drug smuggling and organized crime. The scope, complexity, and ongoing evolution of these illicit networks continually challenge both law enforcement and conservation.

Reptile Trade: A Multi-Billion Dollar Black Market Beyond Pet Sales, Including Skins, Medicine, and Consumption

Wildlife Trafficking Is the Third-Largest Illegal Trade After Guns and Drugs, With Portable, Lucrative Reptiles Easily Transported With Minimal Detection

Illegal wildlife trafficking represents about a $20 billion a year global industry, making it the third-largest illegal trade after guns and drugs. Jeremy McBride and Eric Goode stress the lucrative nature of trafficking reptiles: easy to transport, highly valued, and often overlooked at borders. Reptiles are considered “nature with handles” for their portability—smugglers simply strap them to their bodies or pack them in suitcases. Turtles, in particular, are easy to ship because they can go without water or food for long periods; traffickers wrap them in socks, put them in boxes or diapers, tape them up, and ship them without much concern for their survival in transit. The value is astonishing—a single turtle can be worth more than a tiger, and rare reptiles or turtles can fetch tens of thousands of dollars.

Reptile Trade: Python Skins, Turtles For Medicine and Food, Rare Species For Collectors, Wild-Caught Command Premium Over Farm-Bred

The black market extends far beyond exotic pets. Turtle trade is massive, serving demand for traditional medicine and food, especially among aging populations in Asia. Snake meat, for example, is common in some Chinese bars, while turtle meat is believed to bring vitality and treat illness. Asian markets consume massive numbers of turtles and snakes: some are eaten, others are used in traditional medicine, and the rest go into the lucrative skin trade. Python skins—primarily from wild-caught blood, reticulated, and Burmese pythons in Southeast Asia—are used in the high-fashion industry for bags and accessories, with reticulated pythons being most sought after.

The exotic pet trade is also enormous, with China now a huge consumer. Thirty years ago, it was rare for Chinese families to keep reptiles as pets; today, it is widespread, adding a massive new demand. Wild-caught animals command a premium over farm-bred specimens.

Smugglers' Ingenious Methods: Hiding Cocaine in Snakes, Mixing Animals, Minimal Packaging

Wildlife trafficking often overlaps with drug trafficking, sometimes in secretive and ingenious ways. Smugglers have force-fed cocaine-filled balloons to snakes like boas, packing them inside the animals’ stomachs to evade detection, necessitating cutting the animal open upon arrival to retrieve the drugs. Fish markets in New York have used fish for hiding narcotics because the smell is a deterrent to inspectors. Traffickers may pack crates with drugs at the bottom, layer animals on top, and sometimes mix rare species with common ones—or pack crates with venomous snakes at the top, making inspection hazardous enough to deter thorough searches.

Smuggling Ties to Organized Crime in 1980s/90s Miami

Protagonist Mario Tabrali: Sentenced To Over 100 Years For Drug and Wildlife Trafficking, Mysteriously Released After 12 Years, Suggesting Possible Government Deals

The intersection of wildlife and drug smuggling was notorious in 1980s and 1990s Miami. One case, involving Mario Tabrawi, exemplifies the high stakes and secrecy: Tabrawi was sentenced to over 100 years for drug and wildlife trafficking but was released after just 12 years, likely due to his possession of sensitive intelligence or striking a deal with the government. Authorities speculate he may have helped bring down major drug lords or leveraged his connections from a family network linked to Cuban exiles and covert operations.

Dea Agents Implicated In Smuggling, Echoing Corruption in Films Like Bad Lieutenant

Some DEA agents themselves became entangled in trafficking, echoing extreme cases of corruption depicted in films like "Bad Lieutenant." Frequent high-profile cases involved agency graduates later found murdered or imprisoned for involvement in smuggling ivory, horns, and drugs, and the risks for law enforcement—including retaliation fears—remained high.

Smuggling Exploited Gaps in Pre-9/11 Customs and Wildlife Resources

Before stricter airport security and enhanced customs inspections, animal smuggling was relatively easy, with travelers able to bring wildlife concealed with minimal checks. Inspectors faced “volumes, volumes of crates” and had limited resources, making detection difficult. Smugglers exploited pre-9/11 gaps in customs, using dangerous animals as deterrents while mixing legal and illegal cargo.

Modern Trafficking Shifts as U.S. Species Are Exported To Asia, Driven by Demand in China for Rare Turtles, Birds, and Reptiles

Native American and Box Turtles From Oklahoma and Missouri Are Illegally Exported To Asia, Commanding Prices in the Thousands, With Shipments Valued In Millions

A dramatic shift in recent decades is the large-scale export of native U.S. reptiles and birds to Asia, especially China. Turtle and box turtle species from Oklahoma and Missouri are now highly prized in Asian markets for pets and traditional uses, often fetching thousands of dollars per animal. Eric Goode recounts confiscations of hundreds of box turtles at U.S. airports, with single shipments collectively worth hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars once sold in China. The majority of U.S. wildlife exports are marine invertebrates and reptiles. Notably, the U.S. has the greatest diversity of turtles and tortoises in the world, with 51 speci ...

Plowshare Tortoise: Extreme Trafficking Threat, Wild Populations Decimated; Successful Captive Breeding Offers Recovery Potential

Plowshare Tortoise, Native to a Small Madagascar Region, Near Extinction due to Pet Trade; Wild Specimens Fetch $100,000, Used As Currency in Impoverished Malagasy Communities

Eric Goode recounts spending two decades attempting to save the plowshare tortoise, a species native to a tiny region of northern Madagascar. The species is critically endangered due to severe poaching, driven by its immense value in the illegal pet trade—some wild plowshares fetch up to $100,000 each. In extremely impoverished Malagasy communities, these tortoises are used almost as a form of currency. Their desirability as pets, particularly in Asian markets via direct Madagascar-Bangkok flights, has nearly eradicated them in the wild, resulting in functional extinction for wild populations.

First Captive-Bred Hatchling of This Species in Western World

Goode describes how, after recovering confiscated plowshares from China and Taiwan and waiting 15 years, he and his team succeeded in breeding the first captive hatchling of the species in the Western world—a feat no zoo had previously accomplished. This breakthrough was filmed and included in their HBO docu-series, symbolizing hope for species recovery. Despite the lengthy time to reach sexual maturity—30 to 40 years in the wild, though a bit faster in captivity—this success gives a rare, critically endangered tortoise a new chance.

Legal Captive Breeding to Reduce Poaching

Legal, controlled captive breeding is presented as a strategy to alleviate poaching pressure, likened to the principles behind drug legalization: if the tortoises can be bred at scale for legitimate pet or institutional purposes, illegal trafficking could be reduced. Goode argues that making these tortoises available through official channels is vital, because despite being highly valued and slow to reproduce, captive populations can eventually be reintroduced to Madagascar. However, he concedes that reintroduction efforts risk renewed poaching and thus must be accompanied by ongoing, costly protections and community engagement to avoid repeating the cycle of extinction.

Florida Overwhelmed By Invasive Reptiles: Pythons, Iguanas, Monitor Lizards Pose Ecological Problem

Python Population in Florida Hits 500,000, Due to Escaped Pets and Research Facility Breach, Causing Difficult Ecological Disruptions

The explosion of invasive reptiles in Florida exemplifies how pet ownership and trade can reshape ecosystems. Joe Rogan and Goode discuss the python crisis, with up to 500,000 Burmese pythons now in Florida, largely due to released pets that grew too large for owners and possible breaches at research facilities. Pythons, purchased as small juveniles, become unmanageable at 15 feet and are often set loose, thriving particularly well in South Florida.

Invasive Iguanas and Lizards Widespread in Florida; Consumption Hunting Considered For Population Control

Alongside pythons, green iguanas and monitor lizards (“tegu” lizards from South America) are now common in Florida. These populations were bolstered by pet releases—at peak, up to 5,000 green iguanas were being sold weekly in the 1990s, partly fueled by pop culture crazes like Jurassic Park. Iguanas are prolific, have few natural predators as adults, and inflict considerable ecological damage. To counter rising numbers, hunting and eating iguanas is gaining popularity, with YouTube communities showcasing recipes and cooking methods. While consumption is discussed as a pragmatic solution, it’s emphasized that not all iguanas are pests; about 45 species exist worldwide, many highly endangered, and not to be conflated with the abundant green iguana.

Pet Ownership Choices Transform Landscapes, Cause Species Loss

The death toll from the pet trade—including imported reptiles—remains high, with many animals dying before reaching consumers. Choices by pet owners, often made with little consideration for the long-term ecological consequences, have led to the transformation of native landscapes and the loss of local species.

Resistance and Mixed Outcomes in Large Carnivore Reintroductions: Balancing Ecosystem Goals and Human Safety Concerns

Colorado's Wolf Reintroduction Sparks Conflict As Migrating Wolves Threaten Livestock and Pets, Highlighting Ecosystem Restoration Challenges

Rogan and guests discuss contentious efforts to restore large carnivores, starting with wolves in Colorado. Wolf reintroduction is causing friction with humans, particularly ranchers who face predation of livestock and pets. Wolves, highly mobile, can travel vast distances, crossing state lines and igniting new controversies wherever they appear.

Grizzly Bear Reintroduction in California Faces Obst ...

The world of exotic animal collectors and enthusiasts extends far beyond traditional pet ownership. Driven by a fascination with rarity and often operating in the shadows of legality, these individuals inhabit a subculture shaped by obsession, risk-taking, and a complex web of ethical justification.

Exotic Animal Collectors Are Driven by the Desire for Scarce, Valuable Items, Resembling Obsessive Cultures Like Baseball Card or Rare Art Collecting Rather Than Pet Ownership

Collectors Emphasize Rarity and Value Over Companionship, Seeking Unique Items and Driving Collections Toward Dangerous, Restricted Species

Jeremy McBride and Eric Goode describe the exotic animal world as one built upon scarcity, where possessing a unique or rare creature is akin to collecting valuable baseball cards or rare art. Collectors express excitement and a sense of adventure in seeking the “rarest of the rare.” As Goode puts it, some are not satisfied with common pets like the bearded dragon; instead, they aspire to own the “Rolls Royce of reptiles.” The thrill is not only in acquiring uncommon species but also in the competitive and sometimes illicit quest for animals that few others possess—including dangerous, highly restricted, or even illegally-trafficked species.

Animal Collecting Often Becomes Addictive, Leading To Burnout, Divorce, or Legal Issues When Unsustainable

Both McBride and Goode note the addictive nature of this collecting. Enthusiasts often accumulate more and more animals, sometimes to the point of personal harm—experiencing burnout, facing divorce, or encountering legal trouble when their habits become unsustainable or cross into illegal territory. The trade is marked by cycles of acquisition and eventual breakdown, echoing the behaviors seen in other obsessive-collective communities.

Subculture Attracts Bikers, Tattooed, Goth Individuals Involved In Risk-Taking Behaviors Such as Drug Use

This subculture attracts a wide range of individuals notably marked by extreme or counterculture identities: bikers, tattooed individuals, goths, and people who self-select into risk-taking lifestyles—sometimes alongside behaviors like drug use. Goode points out the prevalence of “inked guys,” goths, and bikers, particularly those interested in “hot snakes”—venomous reptiles capable of inflicting fatal bites. The culture is rebellious and sometimes macabre; some collectors even acquire animal artifacts such as shrunken heads or taxidermied zoo animals, further blurring the line between legal interest and the morbidly illicit.

Collectors Justify Acquiring Harmful Species Through Care Narratives

Collectors Claim to Protect Rare Species By Keeping Them In Captivity, Seeing Their Role as Rescue, Not Exploitation, Though These Animals Are Illegally Taken From the Wild

Collectors often rationalize their acquisition of rare or potentially dangerous animals with narratives of care and stewardship. They claim to be rescuing or protecting threatened species by keeping them in captivity. However, Goode and McBride note the contradiction: many of these animals are outright smuggled from their native habitats, feeding a black market and accelerating ecological devastation, particularly among already endangered reptiles.

Differences Between Reptile Collectors and Mammalian Pet Owners: Lack of Reciprocated Affection

A clear distinction between exotic reptile collectors and more mainstream mammalian pet owners is the relationship with the animal. While mammal owners may seek emotional connection and shared experience, reptile collectors are drawn to animals that do not reciprocate affection. As Rogan points out, reptiles simply do not care about their keepers, and their appeal lies more in their rarity and the challenge of their care rather than any companionship.

Smuggler Collectors: Compartmentalized Morality and Wildlife Impact

Smuggler collectors, in particular, demonstrate a compartmentalized morality. They often ignore the immense harm their passions inflict on wild populations and ecosystems. McBride emphasizes that the obsession with rarity and collecting for personal thrill is directly linked to extinction-level threats: more reptiles are now endangered than ever, with the accelerated rate of loss driven largely by the pet trade, smuggling, and lack of awareness about the impact on smaller vertebr ...

How societies value and interact with wildlife varies dramatically around the globe, informed by cultural beliefs, economic interest, pop culture, and deep-seated evolutionary or religious ideas about certain kinds of animals.

Asian Markets' Luxury Industries in Endangered Species: Traditional Medicine Beliefs and Status Signaling

In China and other parts of Asia, rare wildlife is often highly coveted for use in traditional medicine, as status symbols, and as luxury pets. Eric Goode details how turtle farms in China breed critically endangered species such as the golden coin turtle (Cuora trifasciata), with individual animals commanding $20,000 to $40,000 for consumption, largely due to beliefs that their body parts possess potent medicinal qualities. These wild-caught turtles are prized even more highly than farmed ones because of the notion that a wild diet renders the animal’s parts more powerful for healing, with people willing to pay premium prices to save a loved one's life or as a form of prophylactic health.

The rarity of these turtles pushes prices even higher. The Yunnan box turtle, believed extinct for decades and newly rediscovered, can reach market values of $100,000 to $200,000, especially as a luxury pet—a result of their extreme scarcity and the status they confer on owners. Goode notes that a turtle can be worth more than a tiger, underscoring the valuation for some species.

Tiger farms in China represent another dimension of this consumption-driven commodification. Tigers are bred in captivity, and their body parts—including bones for “tiger bone wine” (supposed to boost virility and health), penile tissue for sexual enhancement, and meat—are sold despite the practice largely being illegal and the existence of strict bans. These illicit luxury goods are deeply woven into the social signaling of affluence and well-being.

The exploitation extends to other species: Chinese giant salamander farms supply both meat and pets, with these huge amphibians—capable of eating rats and rabbits—being a luxury food despite their endangered status. Snakes, too, are commercialized as delicacies or novelty drinks, such as cobra blood in Taiwan and China and snake-infused sake in Japan (e.g., the habu snake).

Spectacle and status-marketing are common. Goode describes massive wildlife shows in China that mirror car shows, featuring models in revealing outfits promoting rare species. Here, highly endangered animals are auctioned as prestigious pets, with festival audiences later served turtle soup for lunch—signifying the contradictory roles animals play: luxury commodity, pet, and food.

Western Practices: Parallel Wildlife Damage by Consumption and Collection

The West, though often critical of Asian wildlife practices, engages in parallel forms of consumption and exploitation. Though Americans might decry dog as food (as practiced in parts of Asia and Indonesia), they eat snapping turtles in New Orleans and the Southeast, and American snapping turtles are shipped to Asian markets. Goode notes that while snapping turtles aren’t endangered in the U.S., the larger alligator snapping turtle is under threat, and Americans’ own conservation record is blemished by the near-eradication of species like the passenger pigeon, Carolina parakeet, and American bison.

Conspicuously, the Western exotic pet industry also impacts wild populations severely but is often less criticized than Asian traditional medicine. The market for high-end parrots like hyacinth macaws ($40,000-$60,000 each) and for raptors such as golden eagles, prized in Middle Eastern falconry, drives international wildlife trafficking. U.S. laws on raptor ownership are strict, but globally, the demand often fuels illegal or unsustainable trade.

This selective bias in Western conservation narratives frequently overlooks damage caused by Western appetites—whether through consumption or the pet trade—while spotlighting “foreign” practices as uniquely harmful.

Pop Culture Spikes Demand for Exotic Pets as Movies and Shows Ignite Consumer Desire in Pet Markets

Pop culture profoundly shapes wildlife demand, sometimes overwhelming markets and causing ecological harm. The release of “Jurassic Park” in the 1990s led to a boom in iguana sales—up to 5,000 weekly—as consumers sought their own “pet dinosaurs,” only for the market to collapse when novelty faded. “Harry Potter” created a surge in pet owls, particularly in Asian markets, as fans wanted their own Hedwig, flooding markets with baby owls without regard ...

Conservation documentaries increasingly employ unconventional filmmaking methods and focus on unique personalities from niche subcultures to craft stories that go beyond traditional, preachy formats. Filmmakers like Eric Goode and Jeremy McBride draw broader audiences by exploring the fringe worlds of reptile dealers, wildlife criminals, and collectors, leveraging these subcultures to critique systemic issues in conservation.

The Filmmaking Method Prioritizes Patient Documentation of Niche Subcultures, Allowing Organic Story Development While Maintaining Access to Reluctant Subjects

Eric Goode describes a documentary process that spans years, allowing for organic narrative development. For example, “Monsters of God” originated as a concept in 2008 and is set to release in 2024, demonstrating the patience required to follow subjects long enough for compelling stories and unforeseen events to naturally unfold.

Building trust with documentary subjects, many of whom are criminally involved or wary of media, takes time and careful navigation. Goode addresses the animosity that can emerge when subjects take offense at how they appear on screen—something he views as part of the job. Meanwhile, his team manages multiple projects simultaneously, such as delving into Florida’s communities of reptile dealers, wildlife traffickers, and exotic animal collectors, to find compelling entry points for their films.

To Be Effective, Feature Compelling, Unique Characters to Engage Audiences and Convey Conservation Messages Missed by Traditional Documentaries

Goode emphasizes that successful documentaries must transcend traditional “preach to the converted” styles, which tend to bore or alienate and appeal mostly to those already convinced of their cause. Instead, he explains that documentaries with narrative drive and colorful, unconventional personalities—including even “freaky people”—are more likely to captivate unfamiliar audiences and introduce new perspectives on conservation issues. The spectacle and controversy intrigue viewers who might otherwise turn away from environmental programming.

Often, unforeseen events such as Joe Exotic’s failed murder attempt or Tanya’s chimpanzee kidnapping inject genuine narrative tension and unpredictability. While these developments make the documentaries commercially viable and culturally relevant, Goode cautions that relying on such unpredictable stories is not a reliable recipe for success—it demands both patience and passion, not an expectation of wealth.

Projects Examine "Monsters" and Extreme Practitioners to Reveal Broader Systemic Issues, Ethical Contradictions, and Unintended Consequences Mainstream Subjects Overlook

By following an array of characters—smugglers, law enforcement officials, ...