In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, Gad Saad introduces the concept of "suicidal empathy"—a hyperactive emotional response where individuals support causes or people who ultimately wish them harm. Saad explores how excessive empathy, when hijacked by ideologies, can override rational thinking and basic survival instincts. He draws parallels to parasites manipulating host behavior and examines how this phenomenon manifests in contemporary society, from criminal justice policy to immigration debates.
The conversation covers a range of interconnected topics, including Islam's theological framework and its relationship with Western values, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Middle East geopolitics, and the psychological mechanisms behind persistent antisemitism. Saad and Rogan also discuss the challenges Western democracies face with mass immigration from culturally distinct societies, the importance of recognizing value incompatibility, and the tension between maintaining liberal democratic principles while accommodating diverse populations. Throughout, Saad argues that cultural coherence is necessary for sustaining functioning liberal democracies.

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Gad Saad introduces "suicidal empathy" as a hyperactive emotional response where individuals support causes or people who ultimately wish them harm. He compares this to parasites hijacking insects' brains—such as wood crickets drowning themselves to benefit the parasite's reproduction. Similarly, when both rational and emotional systems are hijacked by ideologies, people lose survival instincts and become captive to destructive ideas.
Saad's framework treats ideologies as parasites that manipulate cognitive systems through "parasitic ideas" and affective systems through excessive empathy. Following Aristotle, Saad notes that empathy itself isn't bad—virtue lies in the mean between extremes. Too little empathy creates psychopathy, too much creates suicidal tendencies, especially when empathy is misplaced.
Saad argues that cultural relativism—the refusal to judge other cultures' practices—enables suicidal empathy by preventing critical assessment of value compatibility between immigrants and host societies. This unwillingness to evaluate harmful practices like honor killings renders societies unable to make informed immigration decisions. The danger appears in support for open borders, where compassion overrides rational consideration of integration or values protection.
This hyperactive empathy manifests in various contexts: rape victims showing empathy toward attackers, or activists like the queer woman at a Free Palestine rally who acknowledged Palestinian authorities would kill her for her identity yet expressed support anyway. Saad describes this as empathy superseding basic survival instincts.
Saad and Rogan discuss criminal justice systems repeatedly releasing felons who continue victimizing others, justified by empathy for the criminal's background. They cite cases where victims—such as a Norwegian man raped by a Somali migrant or a German woman assaulted by non-German speakers—either experience guilt or actively shield their attackers to avoid negative impacts on marginalized communities.
Other examples include Israeli doctors saving the life of Sinwar, who orchestrated further violence after release, and campus activists wearing keffiyehs at rallies supporting groups whose charters call for their execution based on identity. Saad asserts that radicalized students often exhibit more passion for distant conflicts than larger humanitarian disasters, driven by ideologically selective empathy that designates which victims deserve outrage, often at the expense of self-preservation.
Saad examines Islam's growth, theological infrastructure, and tensions with Western liberalism, emphasizing demographic and geopolitical consequences.
Saad describes Islam as a proselytizing religion seeking global conversion, with easy entry via the Shahada. In contrast, Judaism actively discourages conversion. This difference explains Islam's growth to two billion adherents—one in four people globally—within 1,400 years, compared to Judaism's 15 million worldwide.
Islamic theology divides the world into Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (House of War), with non-Muslim lands requiring conversion. Past Islamic dominion creates permanent claims for reversion to Muslim rule. Saad stresses this creates a doctrine of permanent conflict until global Islamic dominance is achieved. He notes all Organization of Islamic Cooperation countries began with 0% Muslim populations, with regions like Indonesia, Egypt, and Lebanon converting over time through successful expansion.
Saad argues that political Islam is fundamental to Islamic texts, citing Turkish President Erdogan's claim that "there is no moderate Islam, there is just Islam." He references hadiths predicting paradise will arrive only when every Jew is killed, fostering permanent theological opposition to Jewish existence. Moderate Muslims, Saad claims, achieve moderation not through doctrinal reform but by selectively ignoring canonical requirements that cannot be fundamentally changed.
As Islamic populations settle in the West, Saad claims they increasingly demand cultural and religious accommodations. He mentions a demographic trajectory in European countries where Muslim populations at 0-2% remain quiet, but as they rise toward 6-10%, demands for sharia and "no-go zones" increase. Quebec's immigration policy, which brought Muslims fleeing violence, led to visible changes including increased veiling, safety concerns, and demands for religious accommodations.
Saad quotes Taliban leaders—"Americans have watches, we have all the time in the world"—explaining that Islam's expansion is a patient, long-term project. He notes Islam's growth from 7% of the global population in 1900 to 25% today, warning that continued Muslim immigration and demographic growth could alter democratic cultures and values in Western societies over generations.
Saad emphasizes that Israel is a unique democracy where Muslim citizens serve in the Knesset, excel as university valedictorians, and participate in the judiciary. He contrasts this with the complete absence of Jewish participation in neighboring Islamic countries. Saad insists Israel's Jewish claim to the land predates Islamic claims by over a millennium, and after the Holocaust, Israel's 1948 founding functioned as a refuge, not colonial extraction.
Saad describes Hamas's charter as explicitly calling for the extermination of Jews globally, not just elimination of Israel. The central Palestinian demand is "demographic transformation"—Israel's elimination—as evidenced by decades of rejecting statehood offers. Saad characterizes Palestinian leadership as refusing any solution that doesn't involve eradicating Israel.
Saad and Rogan discuss estimates of 70,000 dead in Gaza, acknowledging the devastation while noting data comes from Hamas sources. Saad insists Israel's actions respond to unprecedented attack, not unprovoked aggression, and that Israel attempts to limit civilian casualties despite Hamas embedding forces within civilian infrastructure. He concludes Israel did "the best that could possibly be" given the context.
Saad agrees that removing Saddam Hussein contributed to instability enabling ISIS, but argues it's insufficient to assign all responsibility for ISIS's crimes to the U.S. The perpetrators' own agency and ideological motives must be recognized. He rejects the idea that U.S. foreign policy is a puppet of the "Zionist lobby," stressing all states pursue their interests naturally. Saad contends that geopolitics is shaped by self-interest across all actors, making it dishonest to uniquely demonize U.S. actions.
Saad questions the consistency of Western outrage for Palestinian deaths, noting lack of comparable concern for 600,000 Syrians killed in civil war or "innumerable" deaths among Yemenis and South Sudanese. He calls this the "No Jews, No News" effect—international voices express moral outrage only when Jews are agents of violence. Saad concludes that much outrage toward Israel is ideologically selective and inconsistent rather than based on universal moral principle.
Saad explores psychological, sociological, and cultural factors making Jews susceptible to scapegoating and resentment.
Saad explains the self-serving bias: people attribute successes to their own abilities and blame external forces for failures. This fosters the search for an external enemy figure, and Jews—due to their visibility and disproportionate success—have become that universal scapegoat. This centuries-long, global pattern suggests deeply structural psychological mechanisms drive persistent Jew-hatred.
Citing Amy Chua, Saad introduces "market-dominant minorities"—small ethnic groups that outperform the larger population economically, controlling significant wealth and breeding resentment among the majority. Except in Israel, Jews function as a market-dominant minority virtually everywhere they settle. This dynamic isn't unique to Jews—Lebanese in West Africa and Indians and Chinese in Southeast Asia face similar backlash as economically dominant outsiders.
Saad attributes Jewish success primarily to a culture emphasizing educational and professional excellence. Intense parental investment and avoidance of shame around setbacks translate directly into socioeconomic success. However, Jewish success is often misinterpreted as evidence of conspiracy rather than cultural values, triggering further resentment and reinforcing scapegoating.
Citing Thomas Sowell, Saad relays Sowell's answer to what would end antisemitism: "Fail." If Jews ceased being anomalously successful, the perceived threat would diminish. Saad emphasizes that increases in antisemitism have historically tracked with Jewish economic influence, reinforcing that envy and visible success—rather than religious differences—are more direct causes of animus.
Saad and Rogan discuss challenges Western democracies face with mass immigration from culturally distinct societies.
Saad explains that many Americans lack a "cultural theory of mind"—understanding that people outside the West may not share desires for democracy or liberal values. Core Western virtues like magnanimity and empathy are often interpreted as weaknesses in honor-based cultures. He shares that in Arabic circles, it was common to say "the West is a woman to be mounted," reflecting perception of Western openness as vulnerability rather than strength.
Using Quebec as a case study, Saad discusses the province's post-1997 policy welcoming Francophone immigrants from Islamic countries. He observes tangible changes in Montreal: increased hijabs, new demands for prayer rooms, and normalization of public prayers. These shifts visibly affected public spaces and cultural norms, with some immigrant communities forming parallel societies with separate schools and commercial districts, limiting integration into broader civic structures.
Rogan points out that progressive politicians avoid open discussions about immigration and cultural differences due to fear of being labeled racist or Islamophobic. Saad characterizes this as "suicidal empathy," where avoiding condemnation overrides society's long-term interests. This creates a ratchet effect: each new accommodation sets a precedent for ever-greater expectations, placing continual pressure on liberal societies to adjust rather than maintain foundational norms.
Saad argues that not all religious or cultural systems support liberal democracy's foundational elements like secular governance and pluralism. Welcoming large numbers of immigrants from societies with conflicting values can undermine social stability. He concludes that sustaining a functioning liberal democracy necessitates cultural coherence—Western societies cannot accept unlimited immigration from populations with conflicting foundational values without risking loss of what defines them as liberal democracies.
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Suicidal Empathy: How Excessive Empathy With Flawed Ideologies Harms Interests
Gad Saad introduces "suicidal empathy" as a hyperactive emotional response that leads individuals to support causes or people who ultimately wish them harm. This is likened to brain worms hijacking insects—such as the wood cricket—where a neuro-parasite invades the insect’s brain, causing it to commit suicide by jumping into water, a fatal act that benefits the parasite’s reproductive cycle. Saad draws a parallel to humans: if both cognitive (rational) and affective (emotional) systems are hijacked, people lose their survival instincts and become captive to destructive ideologies in a similar fashion.
Saad’s "parasitic mind" framework posits that ideologies can act like parasites by hijacking cognitive and affective systems. The cognitive system is manipulated when people lose the ability to think critically through exposure to "para ...
Suicidal Empathy: Definition and Mechanism as a Destructive Ideological Force
Saad argues that certain parasitic ideas, like cultural relativism, support the spread of suicidal empathy. Cultural relativism asserts that one should never judge the beliefs or practices of other cultures, leading to an inability to critically assess the assimilation or value compatibility between immigrants and host societies. In this context, the refusal to judge harmful cultural practices—such as honor killings or child marriage—renders societies impotent in making decisions about immigration and the values that new arrivals might bring. Saad claims this lays the groundwork for the suicidally empathetic notion that all immigrants will necessarily assimilate and share the host society’s ethos, regardless of evidence to the contrary.
The danger of extreme empathy appears in support for open borders and unlimited immigration, where compassion overrides rational consideration of integration, values, or the protection of liberal norms.
Saad expands this framework to other social areas. Hyperactive empathy can also manifest among rape victims ...
Parasitic Ideas and Suicidal Empathy
Saad and Rogan discuss multiple real-world manifestations of suicidal empathy. They cite criminal justice systems where felons—particularly those from marginalized backgrounds—are released repeatedly despite continually victimizing others. This leniency, justified by empathy for the criminal’s background or perceived systemic injustice, risks neglecting the rights and safety of present and future victims.
Saad describes cases where victims—such as a man in Norway raped by a Somali migrant, or a woman in Germany assaulted by non-German-speaking perpetrators—either experience guilt or actively shield their attackers to avoid negative impacts on marginalized communities. In these cases, victims may lie or decline to press charges, prioritizing supposed social or ideological goods over their own trauma and safety.
Other examples include Israeli doctors saving the life of Sinwar, a militant dedicated to Israel's destruction, as an act of humanitarian empathy rooted in the Hippocratic Oath. Sinwar went on to orchestrate further violence after being released, demonstrating that such empath ...
Real-World Manifestations of Suicidal Empathy in Contemporary Society
The phenomenon also appears in campus activism, where Saad and Rogan point to university students who, through symbolic acts like wearing keffiyehs at rallies, show support for groups and causes that, according to their charters, call for harm—including the execution—of those very students based on identity or affiliation. In these scenarios, students subjugate their own survival instincts for the sake of ideological consistency and extreme empathy.
Radicalized individuals, who are not directly involved in global conflicts such as the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, may exhibit more passionate activism for such causes than for larger humanitarian disasters, driven by ideologically selective empathy and moral outrage aimed at their own society. Saad asserts that this form of activism—rooted in excessive empathy for the "out group" and perpetual self-blame for the supposed iniquities of the "in group"—contributes to a culture that selectively designates whi ...
Intersection of Ideology and Empathy in Campus Activism
Gad Saad examines Islam’s growth, its expansionist theological infrastructure, and the tensions between Islamic doctrine and Western liberalism, emphasizing demographic and geopolitical consequences.
Saad describes Islam as a fully proselytizing religion that seeks, in an ideal world, to convert the entire globe to the faith of Islam. Entry into Islam is easy: one must only proclaim the Shahada. In contrast, Judaism is anti-proselytizing. The faith discourages conversion, making it arduous and intending to keep its community small. Saad notes that Judaism acts as a “grind” for prospective converts, serving as a costly signal of piety, and as a result, the number of Jews worldwide remains small, around 15 million—the same as before the Holocaust. Islam, conversely, has grown to two billion adherents—one in four people globally—within 1,400 years, which Saad attributes to its “brilliant marketing.”
Saad explains that Islamic theology divides the world into Dar al-Islam (the House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (the House of War). Any non-Muslim land is considered part of the House of War, and the religious requirement is to bring these lands into the House of Islam. Past Islamic dominion over any territory creates a permanent claim for reversion to Muslim rule, as in the case of Andalusia (Spain) and Israel. The canonical texts—the Quran, Hadith, and Sirah—reveal political and expansionist imperatives intrinsic to Islam, not just “radical Islam.” Saad stresses that this binary division leads to a doctrine of permanent conflict until global Islamic dominance is achieved.
Saad notes that all members of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC)—56 or 57 countries—began with a 0% Muslim population. Over time, through conversion and expansion, regions such as Indonesia and North African nations converted from Christianity or other religions to Islam. Examples include Egypt’s Coptic Christian heritage and Lebanon, which shifted from a Christian majority within Saad’s lifetime to a Muslim majority. Saad highlights the transformation of Syria, Libya, and other regions with formerly significant Christian populations as evidence of a successful, long-term expansionist project.
Saad argues that political Islam is fundamental to Islamic texts, rendering distinctions like “radical Islam” unnecessary. He cites Turkish President Erdogan’s assertion that “there is no moderate Islam, there is just Islam.” The canonical injunctions to expand or subjugate non-Islamic lands are not limited to extremists but derive from the religion’s core doctrines.
Saad asserts that part of Islamic doctrine is the elimination of infidels—a theme he says is not peripheral but endemic. He references hadiths that predict paradise will only arrive when every Jew is killed, including the notorious statement about trees revealing Jews hiding behind them for Muslims to kill. He provides the example of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, who he claims is motivated by such doctrine. Saad argues this fosters a permanent theological opposition to Jewish existence and fundamentally undermines coexistence and pluralism with the West.
Saad points out that so-called moderate Muslims do not so much reform Islam as ignore unacceptable canonical requirements. Since core texts cannot be fundamentally changed, moderation is achieved only by selective disregard rather than doctrinal revision.
Saad claims that as Islamic populations settle in the West, they make increasing demands for cultural and religious accommodations, altering the public and cultural landscape. He argues these demographic changes bring new norms and expectations for religious accommodation, including visible features like veiling and changes to public safety.
Saad mentions a demographic t ...
Islam: Expansionism and Incompatibility With Western Values
Gad Saad underscores that Israel is a unique democracy in the region, highlighting its open society where Muslim citizens are not only present but often excel and participate at the highest levels. He points out that in Israel, Muslims serve in the Knesset, as valedictorians in universities (including women in hijab in medical schools), and in the judiciary. He contrasts this with the absolute lack of Jewish participation in power or academia in neighboring Islamic countries. Saad insists that, while Israel is not perfect, it is unfairly caricatured as a “beast” or “monster,” when in reality it is more tolerant than any of its regional neighbors. As he walked through Jerusalem, he conversed mostly in Arabic, illustrating the inclusion of Arab Israelis. He emphasizes that Israel’s Jewish lineage and historic claim to the land predates Islamic claims by over a millennium, and after the trauma of the Holocaust, Israel’s founding in 1948 functioned as a refuge for Jews, not as an act of colonial extraction.
Saad describes the long-standing asymmetry in positions, drawing attention to Hamas’s charter, which explicitly calls not just for the elimination of Israel, but for the extermination of Jews globally. He argues that the central Palestinian demand is not coexistence or a territorial compromise but rather a “demographic transformation”—essentially, the elimination of Israel itself, as evidenced by decades of rejecting statehood offers. Referencing Bill Clinton, Saad highlights the Palestinian leadership’s rejection of generous offers, including the Oslo Accords, to persist in their aim to deny Israel’s right to exist. Saad characterizes Palestinian leadership, especially under figures like Sinwar and Arafat, as being animated by a refusal to accept any solution that doesn’t involve eradicating Israel, rather than training their youth for any other future.
Joe Rogan and Saad discuss estimates around 70,000 dead in Gaza following Israel’s military response to October 7th, while noting much of the data comes from Hamas sources. They debate proportionality, with Saad acknowledging the devastation but insisting Israel’s actions are a response to an unprecedented attack, not unprovoked aggression. He claims that Israel attempts to limit civilian casualties, factoring the complexity of urban warfare and Hamas’s strategy of embedding forces within civilian infrastructure. The destruction of buildings and infrastructure in Gaza, Saad explains, results from Hamas situating military assets among civilians, putting them deliberately at risk. He concedes the scale of the destruction is immense and could serve to create fresh generations filled with animus but suggests the calculus of war inevitably creates pain on both sides. Ultimately, Saad concludes that, given Israel’s objectives and the context of Hamas’s attacks, they did “the best that could possibly be.”
Saad and Rogan examine the notion that U.S. intervention, particularly the invasion of Iraq and de-Baathification, created the vacuum that enabled ISIS. Saad agrees that the removal of Saddam Hussein contributed to instability, but he argues it is historically and morally insufficient to assign all responsibility for ISIS’s crimes to the U.S. The perpetrators’ own agency and ideological motives must also be recognized, as ISIS’s brutal practices arise from beliefs independent of outside meddling.
Saad rejects the idea that U.S. foreign policy is a mere puppet of the “Zionist lobby,” stressing that all states—including the U.S., China, and Israel—pursue their interests as is natural for sovereign actors. He notes that critics often disproportionately ...
Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and Middle East Geopolitics: History, Response Proportionality, Root Causes, and U.S. Military Intervention Consequences
Gad Saad and others explore the deep-rooted reasons behind enduring antisemitism, focusing on psychological, sociological, and cultural factors that make Jews especially susceptible to scapegoating and resentment.
Gad Saad explains the self-serving bias as a fundamental psychological drive: people attribute their successes to their own abilities (“I did well on the exam because I'm smart and I studied hard”) and blame external forces for their failures (“I did poorly on the exam because the professor is unfair”). Saad argues this evolved as an ego defensive strategy since life is harsh, and it allows individuals to protect their self-esteem by projecting failure onto outside causes.
This tendency, Saad contends, fosters the search for an external enemy figure to blame for both personal and societal misfortunes. In many societies, he finds that Jews have become that universal culprit—a ready-made scapegoat for a vast array of negative outcomes.
Saad posits that Jews are blamed for everything because of their visibility and disproportionate success relative to their population size. He offers examples such as, “Who controls Hollywood? The Jews,” or “Who controls the banks? The Jews,” underscoring the narrative that Jews are always doing “really well” and thus become targets for blame whenever others fail to achieve their ambitions. Saad notes that this pattern can be shockingly extreme—even being deeply rooted in Islamic societies, where Jews are frequently cast as the “ultimate shaitan,” or devil.
He notes that this isn’t limited to isolated cultures or moments in history. The tendency to cast Jews as scapegoats appears in centuries-long, global patterns, suggesting that the underlying psychological mechanism is deeply structural and recurrent. Saad underscores that if anyone could locate a universal source for collective or personal setbacks, Jews often occupy that role due to their exceptional visibility and success as a small minority.
Citing Amy Chua, Saad introduces the idea of “market-dominant minorities”—small ethnic groups that outperform the larger population economically and socially. These groups control significant portions of wealth, business, or influence in a society, which breeds resentment and a sense of unfairness among the majority. He notes that the animus isn’t unique to Jews and gives the example of Armenians, Lebanese, Indians, and Chinese minorities in different regions who have faced similar backlash as economically dominant outsiders.
Saad asserts that except in Israel, Jews function as a market-dominant minority virtually everywhere they settle, making them susceptible to animus wherever they are. Unlike most market-dominant minorities, however, Jews stand out for achieving this status repeatedly and visibly across many nations and centuries, with their small numbers magnifying the extent of their achievements and consequently, the envy and suspicion directed at them.
The dynamic, Saad notes, is not limited to Jews. He provides the Lebanese in West Africa and Indians and Chinese in Southeast Asia as examples of market-dominant minorities facing collective resentment and sometimes persecution, drawing a parallel to the Jewish experience. In all cases, success breeds suspicion and hostility, especially when a minority’s advancement is sharply visible against the backdrop of a less successful majority.
Saad attributes the extraordinary Jewish success primarily to a culture that relentlessly emphasizes educational and professional excellence. He personally recounts how his own mother saw a break from studies—even after an MBA—as a source of shame, illustrating the high internal expectations and sense of duty around achievement common in many Jewish families.
Jewish culture often links personal value to educational and occupational accomplishment. This is reinforced by intense parent ...
Antisemitism and Successful Minorities: Why Jews Are Scapegoated and Resented
Gad Saad and Joe Rogan discuss the challenges Western democracies face with mass immigration from culturally distinct societies, drawing from Saad's experience in Quebec and broader cultural concepts.
Gad Saad explains that many Americans lack a "cultural theory of mind," which is an understanding that people outside the West may not share a desire for democracy or liberal values. This leads to cultural blindness, where Western societies presume that their own systems and yearnings are universal.
Saad elaborates that core Western virtues—magnanimity, generosity, kindness, and empathy—are often interpreted as weaknesses in other honor-based cultures. He shares that, in his past experiences, it was common in Arabic circles to articulate the saying "the West is a woman to be mounted," reflecting the perception of Western openness and empathy as vulnerabilities rather than strengths.
This cultural dissonance means that Western ideals of tolerance and magnanimity are not necessarily regarded as virtues by newcomers from cultures with different value systems, and may instead be viewed as opportunities for exploitation or dominance.
Saad uses Quebec as a case study, discussing the province’s post-1997 policy of welcoming Francophone immigrants from Islamic countries following the Algerian civil war. He observes tangible changes in Montreal, such as an increase in women wearing hijabs, new demands for religious accommodations like prayer rooms, and the normalization of public prayers. These shifts visibly affected public spaces, cultural norms, and daily life.
He notes the gradual transformation of neighborhoods and institutions, describing a "drip, drip, drip" effect where small but cumulative changes eventually alter the character of spaces. Saad describes university campuses as venues for these shifts, citing his own experiences with increased security and death threats after the influx of Islamic immigrants.
The discussion highlights how some immigrant communities form cultural enclaves, establishing separate schools, religious prayer spaces, and commercial districts. This often results in parallel societies that do not fully integrate into the broader civic structures, creating social divisions and limiting shared community bonds.
Joe Rogan points out that politicians, especially those on the left, avoid open discussions about immigration and cultural differences due to fear of being labeled racist, Islamophobic, or otherwise bigoted. This fear stifles debate about critical integration and assimilation issues, even regarding controversial topics such as Sharia law.
Saad characterizes this political avoidance as "suicidal empathy," where the desire to avoid condemnation overrides the long-term interests and stability of society. He illustrates the consequences using an example of crime investigation, where racial sensitivities prevented authorities from conducting a standard police lineup, impeding justice.
Immigration, Demographic Shifts, and Integration: Challenges of Conflicting Values in Western Nations
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