#2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

Jeff Schoep and Daryl Davis discuss their disparate experiences with hate movements, providing unique insights into the life and descent into supremacist ideologies and the curiosity-driven quest to understand and confront racism.

Jeff Schoep's Leadership of the National Socialist Movement

Jeff Schoep became fascinated by Nazism because of family ties to Hitler's army, leading to a decades-long involvement in hate groups.

Fascinated by Nazism Due to Grandfather's Service in Hitler's Army

Jeff Schoep’s interest in Nazism began in fourth grade influenced by his grandfather and great-uncles who fought in Hitler's army during WWII. Although not taught to hate by his family, he found a misguided sense of "coolness" in his grandfather's military service which led him to the National Socialist Movement.

Schoep Joined the National Socialist Movement As a Teen, Rising To National Leader For 27 Years

Schoep actively sought out and joined the National Socialist Movement as a teenager, quickly ascending to its leadership. He remained the national leader for 27 years, a period marked by his indoctrination in racism, hate, and anti-Semitism. He went as far as shaving his head and fully dedicating himself to the movement after being doxed.

Schoep's Involvement Led To His Mother Being Barred From Judgeship

Schoep's involvement in the National Socialist Movement had dire consequences on his family when his mother, elected as a judge in Minnesota, was barred from judgeship by the governor due to Schoep's notorious leadership role and his grandfather's military history.

Daryl Davis' Questioning of Racism

Daryl Davis' multicultural upbringing as a diplomat’s child led to a shocking confrontation with racism and propelled him on a journey to challenge racial hatred face-to-face.

Davis, a Diplomat's Child, Gained a Multicultural Upbringing and Perspective on Race

Davis's upbringing outside the United States in a diversified school setting, where he was exposed to a variety of cultures, greatly contrasted with the racial segregation he encountered upon his return, fueling his intrigue and noncomprehension of racism.

At Age 10, Davis First Faced Racism With Bott ...

As individuals leave hate movements, the process of deradicalization can be complex and fraught with challenges, as discussed by various commentators, including Joe Rogan, Daryl Davis, and Jeff Schoep.

Factors That Contribute To People Leaving Hate Movements

People leave hate movements for a myriad of reasons that are often deeply personal and reflective of profound realizations about themselves and the world around them.

Seeing Humanity In Those They Had Dehumanized

Davis' own engagements have prompted individuals within hate movements to see the humanity of those they previously dehumanized. Jeff Schoep's exposure to diverse communities in Detroit and interactions with individuals like filmmaker Dia Khan facilitated a realization of the humanity in others. Duke Schneider’s experience with a caring African American nurse led him to reconsider his beliefs and ultimately marry outside his race, demonstrating the transformative power of human connection.

Realizing Negative Impacts on Family and Children

For many, the turning point comes when they see the negative impact their involvement in hate movements has on their family. Jeff Schoep recounts the harm his ideology caused to his mother’s career aspirations and their relationship, pressuring him to make amends. Similarly, another family left a movement when recognizing how their ideology was adversely affecting their children.

Cognitive Dissonance Between Movement Ideology and Personal Experiences

Cognitive dissonance plays a significant role in nudging members to leave hate movements. Schoep’s realization that his enjoyment of watching football games, which featured interracial teams, conflicted with the hate movement narrative, is an example. Davis explains how finding common ground and showing respect can lead to cognitive dissonance and encourage individuals to reconsider entrenched beliefs.

Challenges Faced by Those Leaving Hate Movements

Leaving a hate movement can expose individuals to numerous social and personal difficulties.

Stigma and Difficulty Reintegrating Into Society

The stigma associated with having been a part of such movements follows ex-members, making reintegration into society difficult. They encounter challenges in employment and are often reminded of their past, through media labels or societal judgment. Schoep, for example, has struggled to find employment due to his past as a Nazi.

Loss of Community and Need For New Purpose

Individuals who leave hate movements often experience a loss of community and struggle to find a new purpose. Davis highlights the necessity of providing support and avenues for ex-members to redirect their energy. Schoep suggests engaging in activities that offer a new mission to fill the void left by the movement.

Threat of Retaliation From Former Movement Allies

Former members face the threat of retaliation from those they once called allies. This includes attacks or being branded as traitors, which adds to the stress of breaking away. Schoep speaks to the reality of this threat and its impact on individuals opting to make the transition out of these toxic environments.

Daryl Davis and Jeff Schoep's Deradicalizati ...

In a discussion led by Joe Rogan and Daryl Davis, insightful perspectives are shared on the functioning and psychology of hate groups, including their methods of recruitment and ideological appeal.

Tactics Used by Hate Groups to Recruit Members

Hate groups are known for their strategic approaches to enticing new members, often leveraging existing social issues and personal insecurities.

Exploiting Fear, Anger, and Desire For Belonging

Joe Rogan discusses how being part of a hate movement can provide a sense of family or team, which can lead individuals to view outsiders as enemies, adopting an "us against them" mentality. This tribal mindset can foster harmful ideologies. Terms like "R-A-H-O-W-A" (racial holy war) and "boogaloo" are used by these groups to exploit fear and anger, especially in the context of a supposed upcoming race war, playing into a desire for belonging among potential recruits.

Daryl Davis and Jeff Schoep discuss how hate groups tap into the fear of becoming a minority—a trend they believe will lead to civil unrest or even a race war—as part of their training and preparation. They tell people that they need to join them to "take back our country," aiming to recruit those who fear that their cultural identity is being erased.

Indoctrination Through Selective Media, Literature, and Information Sources

Hate groups manipulate media attention to their advantage, orchestrating events in locations guaranteed to attract press coverage. Matt Cole used violence at a Nazi rally to bolster recruitment efforts, presenting media footage to potential recruits as evidence of society's decline under a purported Zionist-occupied government (ZOG). Additionally, groups indoctrinate members through frequent meetings and recommendation of propaganda materials like "Mein Kampf" or "The International Jew" by Henry Ford.

Leveraging Military/Law Enforcement Backgrounds for Paramilitary Training

Veterans are particularly targeted by hate groups due to their combat training, bomb-making skills, and survival tactics. Jeff Schoep discussed how he actively sought to recruit military personnel, with the percentage of members with military backgrounds rising significantly during his time with a hate group. These recruits are sometimes groomed to become "lone wolves," increasing the number of domestic terror attacks.

The Psychology Behind the Appeal of Hate Ideologies

Members of hate groups can exhibit cognitive dissonance and confirmation biases, which can solidify their allegiance to toxic ideologies.

Cognitive Biases: Confirmation and Denial of Contradictory Evidence

Jeff Schoep discusses the cognitive dissonance prevalent within hate groups, with members selectively endorsing ideas that reinforce their prejudices while ignoring evidence to the contrary. This confirmation bias keeps them deeply invested in their harmful beliefs.

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As hate and racism continue to pervade society, Daryl Davis and Joe Rogan explore different approaches to mitigating these issues, focusing on dialogue, shared humanity, and collective action.

The Importance of Exposure and Dialogue Versus Avoidance

Daryl Davis, known for engaging directly with members of hate groups, exemplifies the approach of confronting racism through dialogue rather than avoidance. By discussing the origins of rock music with Jeff Schoep, a former hate group leader, Davis used dialogue to challenge and question hate-based ideologies. His practice of attending Klan rallies for research and understanding highlights the importance of engaging directly with the subject.

Allowing People to Compare Perspectives and Sophistication Levels

Davis also shows that exposure to different perspectives allows people to compare levels of sophistication in ideologies. Rogan cites his high school experience of a debate with Barney Frank, whose eloquence allowed students to discern more sophisticated and logical arguments compared to his less compelling opponent. Through dialogue and exposure, Davis and Schoep were able to share their perspectives and experiences in a public dialogue, which resonated with the audience and possibly incited self-reflection.

Offering Perceptions That Resonate and Catalyze Self-Reflection

Ongoing dialogue can narrow ideological gaps and lead to friendly relationships, encouraging self-reflection and change. Davis emphasizes offering perceptions that may resonate with individuals rather than attacking their realities, as the latter often leads to resistance.

Focusing On Shared Humanity Rather Than Differences

Discussing shared experiences and emphasizing common values can transcend the divides caused by racism and hate.

Emphasizing Common Values and Experiences That Transcend Divides

Davis uses acts of kindness to illustrate the power of positive actions on self-reflection and attitudes. For example, a simple gesture like flashing car lights to signal a speed trap can impact regardless of the identities or backgrounds of the people involved.

Promoting Empathy and Recognizing Biases and Prejudices

Emphasis is placed on promoting empathy and not worrying about superficial differences. Davis argues that by focusing on shared humanity, actions like kindness can help prevent the ...