In this episode of The Diary Of A CEO, Steven Bartlett speaks with Professor Robert Pape about escalating global conflicts and domestic instability in the United States. Pape introduces the escalation trap theory, explaining how leaders become locked into increasingly risky decisions after setbacks, driven by fear of humiliation and political pressure. He examines how this pattern applies to U.S. policy toward Iran and discusses the concept of violent populism, where mainstream support for political violence grows and becomes self-sustaining.
The conversation covers military strategy failures, the dangers of the post-election transition period, and interconnected crises involving Iran, Russia-Ukraine, and domestic U.S. tensions. Pape emphasizes systemic prevention strategies, or "firebreaks," including congressional action, executive restraint, and international mediation protocols. He argues that these policy-level interventions are more effective than individual preparedness measures and encourages direct public engagement with lawmakers to influence safer policy decisions.

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The escalation trap theory explores how leaders become locked in increasingly risky decisions after setbacks, driven by their inability to accept defeat and overwhelming pressure to avoid humiliation. This pattern is particularly evident in U.S. policy toward Iran.
Despite tactical successes in recent U.S. and Israeli operations against Iranian leaders, Iran has not collapsed. Instead, Iran maintained control over the Strait of Hormuz—critical for 20% of global oil supply—resulting in sustained high gas prices. Six months of military campaigns failed to achieve strategic goals, demonstrating that firepower alone doesn't ensure victory.
The escalation trap resembles a game of roulette where each failed bet leads to riskier wagers. President Trump, after the killing of Iran's Supreme Leader failed to weaken Iran, doubled down with a six-week bombing campaign. Like a gambler borrowing from a bookie, Trump borrows political capital from his party to make ever larger bets. With Congress convening on January 3rd, this political debt comes due.
Presidents cannot abandon their legacy when faced with failure, as seen with Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam escalation. Trump faces unique pressures: retreating risks making him the worst modern president, and his financial interests in cryptocurrency and prediction markets are deeply tied to his political influence. Failure threatens both his legacy and substantial family wealth.
The fear of humiliation drives leaders to escalate, hoping a final gambit will recover lost ground. Trump now faces deadlines and diminishing support that risk collapsing not just his political brand but also his personal wealth, demonstrating how the fear of humiliation fuels persistent escalation.
Robert Pape defines the current U.S. crisis as violent populism—where mainstream support for political violence grows and becomes self-sustaining, shifting from isolated incidents to widespread, destabilizing action.
Violent populism occurs when political violence moves from fringe actors to something accepted by millions. Pape's national surveys reveal that over 40 million Americans support using military force to suppress anti-Trump protests, while over 60 million support using force to prevent Trump's presidency. These figures have doubled in two years, indicating dramatic growth in support for political violence as a political tool.
Pape likens the current situation to wildfire season, with millions of Americans acting as "combustible material" needing only a spark to ignite widespread chaos. Trump's December 19th, 2020 tweet summoning supporters to Washington provided the combustible material, while his January 6th message accusing Pence of betrayal sparked the Capitol attack. Unlike the localized 1992 Rodney King riots in Los Angeles, recent French riots demonstrate how violent populism rapidly spreads across cities and borders in the digital age.
Pape identifies the eight weeks between Election Day and seating a new Congress as the most volatile period for domestic violence. Violence surges as defeated leaders and supporters face losing power during transitions, as seen in the 2020-21 transfer culminating in January 6th. Federal agents clashing with protesters during ballot counting could trigger violent populism among millions already primed for such actions.
If Democrats gain control of Congress, they acquire subpoena and impeachment powers that could destabilize the Trump presidency. Mass impeachments, including of the Secretary of Homeland Security, risk paralyzing government and triggering violence. Lawmakers propose a two-month moratorium on deploying federal agents to cities unless requested by local leaders to prevent providing the "spark" for widespread violent populism.
The proposed three-day bombing campaign against Iran, modeled after 1991's "Instant Thunder" against Iraq, aims to force capitulation through rapid aerial assault. However, Pape highlights that the original Iraq campaign lasted 43 days and failed to paralyze Iraq's military. A similar campaign against Iran would leave significant military capability intact and eliminate leadership needed for negotiation, defeating the goal of coercive air war.
Strikes on Iranian infrastructure would result in substantial civilian deaths—potentially tens of thousands—just as the Iraq campaign killed between 5,000 and 15,000 noncombatants. These casualties would fuel Iranian outrage and create personal motivations for revenge, expanding the cycle of retribution with each additional day of bombing.
Extensive civilian casualties foster environments ripe for terrorism. Pape cites evidence of "inspired terrorism"—individuals radicalized by American attacks acting not under direct command but compelled by personal and communal grievances. Massive funeral gatherings for Iranian victims would serve as recruitment pools, guaranteeing escalation in suicide attacks and other reprisals that cannot be eliminated by military means.
When air campaigns fail to paralyze an adversary, pressure mounts to introduce ground forces. Pape warns that remnants of the Iranian military would remain capable of damaging counterattacks, creating calls to deploy U.S. Marines. This would likely begin as small-scale operations but could swiftly expand, drawing the U.S. deeper into a protracted, possibly unwinnable "forever war" from which disengagement is nearly impossible.
Putin's objective remains complete control of Ukrainian territory he's claimed by law but hasn't fully conquered. Pape makes clear that territorial concessions would amount to political suicide for Zelensky and could result in his assassination, making real negotiation politically unviable. Similarly, if Putin accepted defeat, he could face fatal backlash from Russian hardliners.
Russia is preparing to attack Ukrainian power facilities, potentially disrupting up to 90% of the power supply and creating a "dark winter." European governments are responding with unprecedented measures—the UK's "Be Ready" campaign urges citizens to stockpile essentials due to fear of cyberattacks extending beyond Ukraine. If large-scale cyberattacks disrupt European infrastructure, intense public pressure for direct retaliation against Moscow risks dragging NATO into direct military confrontation with Russia.
Pape distinguishes today's proxy wars from true World War III, which would entail direct attacks by global powers on each other's homelands. While Western military aid to Ukraine continues, these remain proxy wars. Only when retaliation leads European militaries to strike Russian territory or vice versa would the conflict cross the threshold into genuine world war.
The Russia-Ukraine war unfolds as part of a complex web including Iran and domestic U.S. instability. These crises are linked through economic, political, and psychological channels—the Iran conflict drives up energy prices, fueling inflation and unrest across the West. These interconnected crises create a dangerous feedback loop, especially during the critical eight-week post-election window, heightening the likelihood of wider conflict.
Pape emphasizes systemic prevention strategies, or "firebreaks," to avert crises rather than relying on individual preparedness.
Congress should declare that the Trump administration must not escalate actions against Iran before the new Congress convenes, unless Iran strikes first. This political firebreak would strip Trump of the pretext to escalate and create time for diplomatic solutions.
Another critical firebreak is urging the Trump administration to refrain from deploying armed federal agents into cities without explicit local requests during the transition period. This prevents a possible spark that could ignite violence among millions of primed Americans.
Pape recommends that mediators such as Pakistan, Qatar, and India coordinate to call for a "hands off civilians" protocol, prohibiting attacks on civilian infrastructure. This diplomatic initiative could give Trump a win without military escalation while safeguarding vulnerable populations.
Pape observes that media can be a powerful tool for prevention. He recounts how his appearance on a prominent show led to questions flooding decision-makers, resulting in Centcom canceling planned drone attacks against Iran. He encourages citizens to email, text, or call their representatives to urge adoption of firebreak strategies, arguing that direct public engagement meaningfully drives leaders to pursue safer courses.
Pape contrasts systemic solutions with individual preparedness, arguing that stockpiling supplies provides only psychological comfort and fleeting relief. True prevention comes from implementing systemic firebreaks at the policy and diplomatic levels—strategies that buy time and keep crises from escalating out of control.
1-Page Summary
The escalation trap theory examines how leaders can become locked in a spiral of increasingly risky decisions, especially after perceived or real military or political setbacks. This vicious cycle, observable in U.S. policy toward Iran, is fueled by the inability of leaders to accept defeat, the structure of political incentives, and the overwhelming pressure to avoid humiliation.
During recent U.S. and Israeli operations, tactical successes failed to achieve intended strategic goals. The killing of Iranian leaders and targeted military strikes were perceived victories, but Iran did not concede defeat. Instead, Iran maintained control over the Strait of Hormuz, a vital waterway for 20% of the global oil supply, resulting in persistent high gas prices. Despite six months of sustained military campaigns—including a six-week air campaign—Iran has not collapsed or capitulated. These actions, while appearing successful militarily, bolstered Iran’s strategic standing, ultimately disproving the conventional belief that firepower ensures victory.
The escalation trap closely resembles a game of roulette, where each failed bet leads to even riskier wagers. President Trump, after gambling that killing Iran’s Supreme Leader would weaken Iran, witnessed no such collapse and found himself "losing on red." Instead of reassessing, he doubled down with a six-week bombing campaign, and after another loss, kept raising the stakes. Just as a gambler borrows from a bookie to keep betting despite mounting losses, Trump borrows political capital from his party and MAGA supporters to make ever larger bets. This relentless escalation creates a looming deadline—like the gambler’s debt coming due—with the new Congress convening on January 3rd representing a point where political capital must be repaid or faced with consequences.
The sequence of escalation—from the killing of the Supreme Leader, through a six-week bombing campaign, to the planning of further air strikes—mirrors the gambler’s logic: increase the size of the bet to recover mounting losses. Yet, each round leaves the U.S. further from its objectives and more deeply invested, both politically and materially, without improving outcomes.
Leaders, particularly presidents, cannot simply abandon their party, agenda, and legacy when faced with failure; the precedent is seen in Lyndon Johnson’s escalation in Vietnam, where he continued increasing U.S. involvement despite falling public support. Presidents fear the legacy of retreat—becoming remembered as political failures like Jimmy Carter or Lyndon Johnson, both of whom struggled with foreign policy debacles.
For Trump, retreating from his Iran policy risks making him the worst modern president, combining the negative legacies of his predecess ...
The Escalation Trap Theory
Robert Pape defines the current U.S. domestic crisis as one fueled by a surge in violent populism—where mainstream support for political violence grows and becomes self-sustaining, shifting from isolated incidents to widespread, destabilizing action.
Violent populism occurs when political violence shifts from being the domain of fringe actors to something accepted and supported by millions. Instead of isolated assassination attempts or city-specific riots, such as the four days of unrest in Los Angeles after the Rodney King verdict in the 1990s, violent populism spreads rapidly across multiple regions and even crosses borders. Pape describes it as a phenomenon now involving large numbers of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum, with political violence increasingly normalized for political goals.
Pape cites recent national surveys showing that more than 40 million Americans support the use of military force to suppress protestors opposing the Trump agenda, while over 60 million support using force to prevent Trump’s presidency. These figures have doubled in two years, laying bare the dramatic growth of support for political violence.
These findings are evidence of stark political polarization, indicating the scale of Americans treating violence as a justifiable tool to achieve political aims. The numbers reveal not just temporary anger but a persistent willingness to condone or support violent actions to further political agendas.
Pape likens the current situation to wildfire season, with millions of Americans acting as “combustible material.” This means the populace is now primed for violent populism, lacking only a spark to ignite a national crisis. The support for violence sits latent, ready to be triggered by unforeseen events or catalysts.
Recent history provides a clear example: President Trump’s tweet on December 19th, 2020 summoned supporters to Washington, D.C. On January 6, the true spark was another Trump message accusing Vice President Pence of betrayal, which galvanized the crowd to storm the Capitol, chanting threats. The combustible material was the millions of supporters; the spark was the President’s words.
Pape contrasts this with both U.S. history and events abroad. The 1992 Rodney King riots were localized to Los Angeles, while more recent riots in France exemplify how violent populism in the age of digital connectivity spreads rapidly from city to city and even across national borders, making containment exponentially more difficult.
Pape identifies the weeks between Election Day and seating a new Congress—about eight weeks—as the most volatile and dangerous window for domestic violence, especially in an era when tens of millions support political violence. During this period, power transfer processes like ballot counting and certification increase tensions and vulnerability to escalation.
Transitions of power intensify stakes for both sides, particularly for those facing the prospect of losing authority or protection. This was seen during the 2020–21 transfer from Trump to Biden, culminating in the January 6th attack on the Capitol—a process stretching over two months from election certification to new Congress seating.
Violent Populism and Us Domestic Crisis
The proposed three-day bombing campaign against Iran, modeled after the 1991 "Instant Thunder" air campaign against Iraq, is intended as a high-intensity, rapid aerial assault. This plan targets Iranian leadership, military command centers, drone hubs, missile sites, and critical infrastructure such as refineries and bridges, aiming to force capitulation without a prolonged ground war. The U.S. military and media often interpret the three-day timeframe as suggesting a limited conflict, but in practice, such campaigns frequently extend far beyond their initial scope.
Robert Pape highlights that the original "Instant Thunder" plan against Iraq was meant to paralyze Saddam Hussein's regime within three days, yet it lasted 43 days and failed to paralyze Iraq’s military or leadership. This historical precedent suggests that a similar campaign against Iran is unlikely to achieve its aims in the intended timeframe. Even after heavy strikes, significant elements of the Iranian military would remain able to retaliate with drone and missile strikes, cyber attacks, and assaults against regional targets and U.S. forces. Rather than inducing surrender, the decapitation of Iranian leadership would leave no functioning government with which to negotiate, defeating the underlying goal of coercive air war.
A campaign striking Iran's infrastructure would result in substantial civilian deaths, just as the Iraq campaign killed between 5,000 and 15,000 noncombatants through attacks on oil refineries, electric plants, and economic targets. Pape warns that tens of thousands of Iranian civilians could be killed by such a bombing campaign, contradicting the notion of a "clean" or limited war. If initial strikes fail to neutralize Iran’s military, further bombing is likely, resulting in mounting civilian casualties.
These deaths would not only fuel outrage among Iranians but would also create personal motivations for revenge against the United States. As civilian casualties escalate, so does the potential for survivors and bereaved family members to support acts of terrorism and prolonged resistance against American interests. Each additional day of bombing increases civilian suffering and expands the cycle of retribution.
Extensive civilian casualties inevitably foster environments ripe for terrorism. Pape cites the Tel Aviv airplane incident, where a co-pilot nearly crashed a plane into the city. Although some officials tried to link the event directly to Iranian state orders, evidence points toward so-called "inspired terrorism": individuals radicalized by American attacks and loss, not acting under direct command but compelled by intense personal and communal grievances. Religious rituals preceding such attacks, like the co-pilot stopping to pray, are common among suicide attackers.
Massive funeral gatherings for Iranian victims double as recruitment pools for further attacks. Pape emphasizes that these are not scen ...
The Iran War and Military Strategy
The ongoing Russia-Ukraine conflict continues to reshape regional and global dynamics, with profound implications for security, politics, and the interconnected crises spanning Europe, the Middle East, and the United States.
Vladimir Putin’s central objective remains the annexation and complete control of Ukrainian territory, specifically the oblasts he has already claimed by law but has not fully conquered. Since the February 2022 invasion, Russian troops have solidified positions in eastern and southern Ukraine, and while Russian forces withdrew from areas near Kiev, fighting has focused on Donetsk, Crimea, and the other partially occupied oblasts. As of July 2026, Russia holds some additional ground but remains far from dominating the entirety of these regions, let alone expanding ambitions toward Novorossiya—areas with large Russian-speaking populations beyond the initial four annexed oblasts.
Putin’s aims in any negotiation therefore go beyond optics; he seeks to force the West, and especially a U.S. administration under Donald Trump, to exert pressure on Ukraine to surrender these territories. However, Pape makes clear that such concessions are almost impossible for Ukrainian President Zelensky. Any attempt to cede these regions would amount to political suicide for Zelensky and could likely result in his assassination by his own military or the civilian population, making real territorial negotiation politically unviable. At the same time, if Putin were forced to accept defeat or a settlement falling short of his stated goals, he could face a fatal backlash from hardliners and the military establishment in Russia—an authoritarian leader’s capitulation that could end in personal doom.
As the diplomatic stalemate persists, Russia is preparing to escalate the conflict by targeting critical Ukrainian infrastructure. Plans include attacking power facilities in Kiev, Kharkiv, and Odessa, potentially disrupting up to 90% of the power supply and creating a protracted humanitarian crisis through a “dark winter.” Such attacks are not limited to momentary outages but could plunge targeted cities into darkness for months, severely impacting civilian life.
Recognizing the risk of escalation, European governments are taking unprecedented steps. The UK government, for instance, has launched the "Be Ready" campaign, urging citizens to stockpile three days’ worth of essentials like bottled water, tinned food, batteries, and cash due to the fear of cyberattacks that could shut down payment systems, internet access, and critical infrastructure. The campaign echoes rising concerns about Russian cyber operations extending beyond Ukraine, potentially targeting European infrastructure. If such large-scale cyberattacks were to occur—disrupting power or communications in cities like London—there would be intense public pressure for direct retaliation against Moscow. This retaliation threshold, once breached, risks dragging NATO countries into direct military confrontation with Russia, elevating the threat of world war.
Robert Pape distinguishes the current era of proxy conflicts from the true definition of World War III. While today’s proxy wars in Ukraine and elsewhere resemble Cold War confrontations in Africa, Latin America, and Afghanistan—where superpowers clashed indirectly—World War III would entail direct attacks by global powers on each other's homelands and armed forces.
Despite the ongoing bloodshed and Western military aid to Ukraine, Pape notes, these remain proxy wars. Only when retaliation for, say, Russian cyberattacks leads European militaries to strike Russi ...
The Russia-Ukraine Conflict and Global Interconnection
Robert Pape emphasizes the critical importance of systemic prevention strategies, or "firebreaks," to avert crises, rather than relying on individual preparedness. He details practical recommendations to reduce the risk of political violence, military escalation, and harm to civilians, supported by evidence of the role public engagement plays in changing outcomes.
Pape argues that Congress should move swiftly to declare that the Trump administration must not escalate actions against Iran before the new Congress convenes, unless Iran strikes first. Such a declaration from Congress would strip President Trump of the pretext to escalate, especially to rally MAGA supporters, and would open space for diplomatic solutions rather than fueling the prospect of a bombing campaign. This political firebreak would impose a hard limit on potential escalation and create the time necessary for strategic reconsideration, reducing the risk of rash military engagement.
Another critical firebreak is urging the Trump administration to refrain from deploying armed federal agents into cities without explicit local requests during the transition period. Pape warns that deploying federal agents, particularly at voting locations, could provoke clashes with anti-Trump protesters and potentially activate latent supporters of violence. Holding back these deployments serves as a firebreak, stopping a possible spark that could ignite violence among millions of primed Americans.
On the international front, Pape recommends that mediators such as Pakistan, Qatar, and India coordinate to call for a “hands off civilians” protocol in regions like the Middle East and South Asia. This diplomatic initiative would prohibit attacks on civilian infrastructure or residential areas and seek to establish new norms for civilian protection during conflicts. Creating political costs for any nation that targets civilians, such mediation could give Trump a diplomatic win without military escalation, potentially bolstering his political position while safeguarding vulnerable populations.
Pape observes that media and social media can be powerful tools for prevention, not just sources of misinformation or unrest. He recounts how his discussions on prominent shows reached key decision-makers after episodes aired, with questions and concerns flooding to leaders. Specifically, he notes that after appearing on a show in July, when momentum was building at Centcom for drone attacks against Iran’s drone network, the real risks were highlighted and brought to the attention of influencers. This public discourse led Centcom to cancel the planned strikes—a clear case where raising the profile of consequences through social media and podc ...
Firebreaks and Prevention Strategies
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