In this episode of The Diary Of A CEO, Steven Bartlett speaks with Professor Robert Pape about escalating global conflicts and the dangers of leadership psychology during crisis. Pape explores how leaders facing failure often double down on risky strategies driven by ego and political survival, examining this pattern through the lens of U.S.-Iran tensions and the war in Ukraine. He outlines his concerns about what he calls "the eight most dangerous weeks," a convergence of domestic political uncertainty, international military escalation, and rising support for political violence in America.
The conversation covers practical risks including the potential for prolonged military conflict, the rise of violent populism in the United States, and Europe's preparation for broader war. Pape concludes by proposing concrete "firebreak" solutions that leaders and citizens can implement to prevent the escalation of multiple simultaneous crises, emphasizing the power of collective political action over individual preparation.

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Robert Pape describes how leaders facing mounting failures often double down on risky strategies rather than accepting defeat, driven by self-interest, ego, and the need to preserve political support. He likens this to gamblers at a roulette table who, instead of walking away from losses, borrow more money and increase their bets in desperate attempts to recover.
Pape explains how Trump's approach to Iran has followed this pattern, escalating from assassination attempts to broader bombing campaigns. Each new step represents a larger, riskier bet after previous actions failed to achieve strategic aims. After six months, Iran's control over the Strait of Hormuz gave it significant influence over global oil supply, causing gas prices to climb and leaving Trump politically exposed before midterm elections. Pape emphasizes that Trump's "chips" in this high-stakes game are his political support from MAGA voters and control of the Republican party. For leaders like Trump and Putin, losing carries catastrophic personal consequences—the risk of being remembered as history's worst president or, in Putin's case, potential death at the hands of his own military.
According to Pape and Bartlett, the "three-day" U.S. bombing plan against Iran is modeled on previous campaigns like "Instant Thunder" against Iraq in 1991, which would officially target 84 leadership and infrastructure sites. However, Pape warns that the 1991 "three-day" Iraq plan ended up continuing for over 43 days and failed to produce regime change. These campaigns create chaos, making negotiations impossible once leadership and communication networks are destroyed.
A failed bombing campaign would likely trigger severe military responses from surviving Iranian forces and proxy groups like the Houthis, along with significant civilian casualties estimated in the thousands. The destruction would spark cycles of revenge attacks, including suicide terrorism, against U.S. personnel and interests. Despite initial intentions to avoid it, ground operations could become necessary, trapping the U.S. in a new "forever war" with no viable exit.
Robert Pape describes an imminent period he calls "the eight most dangerous weeks in our lives," marked by the volatile intersection of domestic political uncertainty, rapid international military escalation, and Europe's preparation for broader conflict.
Pape identifies the post-voting period—when the U.S. awaits certification of results and seating of new congressional victors—as the most dangerous zone for political violence. This danger was exemplified by the January 6th Capitol breach, and contemporary support for political violence is even higher than in 2021. He warns that domestic unrest could erupt while ballots are being counted, coinciding with critical international developments.
This fraught transition can dovetail with global crises, as Trump has promised increased military escalation against Iran after elections, while Putin may realize he cannot secure Ukrainian territorial concessions from Trump, pushing him to escalate the war. Governments across Europe are reacting with campaigns like the UK's "Be Ready," instructing citizens to stockpile essentials and prepare for emergencies ranging from cyberattacks to infrastructure collapse.
Pape explains that the confluence of U.S. political disorder and Middle Eastern war will provide context for a major Russian escalation in Ukraine. Putin is expected to launch strikes aiming to knock out 90% of electric power in major Ukrainian cities, creating a "dark winter." As Ukraine responds with counterattacks, Pape foresees the war spilling beyond Ukrainian borders. Russia may attempt to punish Ukraine's European supporters directly with both cyber and kinetic attacks on NATO territory and civilian areas, with London and other major cities at risk.
Such attacks on European heartlands will generate massive public and political pressure for military retaliation. Pape defines World War III as the world's largest powers engaging in direct attacks on each other's homelands—not just through proxies—making this threshold of global war potentially imminent during the coming eight weeks.
Robert Pape presents a stark picture of the rise of violent populism in the United States, highlighting the shift of political violence from fringe elements to mainstream acceptance.
Pape reports that more than 40 million Americans support the use of military force to suppress protests against the Trump agenda, while over 60 million favor using force to prevent Trump from assuming the presidency. These figures have doubled since September 2024 and now surpass support during the Trump assassination attempts and January 6th Capitol breach.
Pape defines violent populism as the movement of political violence from the periphery to the mainstream, now involving widespread participation. He uses the wildfire analogy: the "combustible material" consists of millions primed to support or commit political violence, while "sparks"—unexpected events like inflammatory tweets, police actions, or ballot disputes—set off these widespread outbreaks. The January 6th events serve as a prime example, where Trump's rhetoric and tweets functioned as sparks, transforming simmering anger into violent action.
Pape warns that specific flashpoints—such as armed federal agents in cities during ballot counting—can ignite violent confrontations. He cites the convergence of multiple crises—ballot disputes, federal agents in the streets, international conflicts driving up energy prices, and mass protests—as unprecedented risk factors for widespread urban violence. The combination of protests, confrontations with law enforcement, economic stress, and international emergencies creates mutually reinforcing conditions that escalate political violence.
One of the gravest concerns is the possible use of the Insurrection Act, allowing the president to deploy the military domestically—a breach of democratic norms not seen since the civil rights crises of the 1950s and 1960s. Pape cites Trump's October 2024 statements in which he refused to rule out declaring the Insurrection Act. Should current trends intensify, Trump may invoke emergency powers and deploy troops to American streets during the critical weeks before Congress is seated.
Robert Pape outlines a series of practical "firebreak" solutions to prevent the most dangerous weeks from spiraling into catastrophe.
Pape identifies three critical actions: First, a declaration by every current and newly elected member of Congress that there be no military escalation against Iran until the new Congress is seated, unless Iran strikes first. Second, every governor and mayor should publicly demand a two-month moratorium on federally armed agents in their cities or states unless explicitly requested by local leaders. Third, countries like Pakistan, Qatar, and India should issue a united call for "hands off civilians" in all ongoing global conflicts, prohibiting the targeting of civilian infrastructure.
Pape stresses that the public holds significant power to drive positive action. Citizens should email, text, or call their elected representatives and urge them to adopt these three firebreak measures. He highlights how modern social media platforms and podcasts serve as important tools for increasing awareness and influencing decision-makers. Open communication about risks can make leaders more cautious and responsive. Pape dismisses personal stockpiling as a meaningful strategy, noting that it does not prevent panic or buy real time. Instead, collective political action and pressure for systemic firebreak measures are the true means to navigate crises and prevent the worst outcomes during periods of acute risk.
1-Page Summary
Robert Pape describes how leaders, facing mounting failures, often double down on risky strategies rather than accepting defeat. This escalation trap is driven by self-interest, ego, and the need to preserve political support and legacy, even as the risks and costs continue to climb.
Pape likens the escalation trap in global politics to a roulette table at a casino. Losing gamblers, instead of walking away, often borrow more money and dramatically increase their bets in a desperate effort to recover their losses, digging themselves into deeper debt with every failed round. Similarly, leaders such as Trump keep raising the stakes after each unsuccessful move, hoping that a bigger, riskier effort will redeem earlier failures.
In the context of the Iran conflict, Trump’s approach has followed this pattern. He has escalated from assassination attempts to broader bombing campaigns—each new step a larger, more desperate bet after previous actions failed to achieve strategic aims or force Iranian capitulation. Each time, results only worsened. For example, after six months, Iran had not collapsed. Instead, its control over the Strait of Hormuz gave it significant influence over global oil supply, causing gas prices to climb and leaving Trump politically exposed before the midterm elections.
Pape emphasizes that Trump’s “chips” in this high-stakes game are chiefly his political support from MAGA voters and control of the Republican party. As pressure mounted ahead of the Congressional turnover in early January, this became like a gambler facing a bookie demanding repayment—Trump needed a big win or risked losing the support of Congress and his party entirely. The humiliation of sustained failure created further pressure to double down. Moreover, for leaders like Trump and Putin, losing or admitting defeat carries catastrophic personal consequences: the risk of being remembered as history’s worst president, severe financial losses, or in Putin's case, potential death at the hands of his own military if he abandons war objectives.
According to Pape and Bartlett, the “three-day” U.S. bombing plan against Iran is modeled on previous rapid, high-intensity air campaigns, such as “Instant Thunder” against Iraq in 1991. Officially, this plan would target 84 leadership and infrastructure sites under the pretense of paralyzing Iran’s government and compelling capitulation without launching a ground war. Targets would include missile sites, drone hubs, IRGC command centers, refineries, and bridges.
However, Pape warns that such plans rarely unfold as intended. The 1991 “three-day” Iraq plan ended up continuing for over 43 days and still failed to produce regime change or full military paralysis. In reality, these campaigns create chaos, making negotiations with the targeted regime impossible—once the leadership and communication networks are destroyed, there is simply no one left to effectively ne ...
Escalation Trap: Leaders Doubling Down On Failing Strategies
Robert Pape describes an imminent period he calls “the eight most dangerous weeks in our lives,” marked by the volatile intersection of domestic political uncertainty in the U.S., rapid international military escalation, and Europe’s preparation for broader conflict. This transition phase, starting with the end of U.S. midterm voting and extending to the seating of a new Congress, is fraught with risks that extend from violent populism at home to the brink of World War III abroad.
Pape identifies the post-voting period—when the U.S. awaits the certification of results and seating of new congressional victors—as the most dangerous zone for political violence, or what he calls “violent populism.” This danger was exemplified by the January 6th Capitol breach, which occurred during this transfer of power. He notes that contemporary support for political violence is even higher than in 2021: tens of millions of Americans, across the political spectrum, now see violence as politically justifiable. He warns that domestic unrest, such as protests and clashes with federal agents, could erupt while ballots are still being counted—coinciding with critical international developments.
Pape details how this fraught transition at home can dovetail with global crises. President Trump has repeatedly promised increased military escalation against Iran after the U.S. elections, and he now has concrete military plans on his desk to strike Iranian targets over several days. Simultaneously, Russian President Putin may realize he cannot secure Ukrainian territorial concessions from Trump if he returns to power, pushing Putin to escalate the war in Ukraine by other means. Thus, U.S. domestic political instability amplifies the risks of violent conflict overseas, as decisions made in Washington will interact with and aggravate dynamics in Iran and Eastern Europe.
Governments across Europe are reacting to these mounting dangers. The UK has launched the “Be Ready” campaign, officially instructing citizens to stockpile at least three days of essentials—water, canned food, battery-powered torches and radios, power banks, first aid kits, and even physical cash—anticipating emergencies ranging from cyberattacks and infrastructure collapse to hostile state action. This readiness campaign follows warnings to prepare for a future in which ATMs and electronic payment systems could be down, supply chains disrupted, and ordinary civic life upended—recently driving panic buying and runs on emergency supplies. Additionally, the U.S. is pulling its personnel and families from Middle East embassies, reflecting wider governmental recognition of the risk of cascading international crises.
Pape explains that the confluence of U.S. political disorder and Middle Eastern war will provide the context for a major Russian escalation in Ukraine, with cascading consequences for all of Europe.
Putin's likely response is to escalate attacks on Ukrainian civilian infrastructure. Specifically, he is expected to launch strikes aiming to knock out 90% of the electric power in major cities such as Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Odessa, not for days but potentially for months, creating a so-called “dark winter” in Ukraine.
The Eight Most Dangerous Weeks: Simultaneous Crisis Convergence
Robert Pape presents a stark picture of the rise of violent populism in the United States, highlighting the shift of political violence from fringe elements to mainstream acceptance. He details how millions of Americans now support the use of political violence to either advance or resist the Trump agenda, illustrating a dangerous national trend with unpredictable but potentially explosive consequences for democracy.
Pape reports that more than 40 million Americans support the use of U.S. military force to suppress protests against the Trump agenda, while over 60 million Americans favor using force to prevent Trump from assuming the presidency. These figures have doubled since September 2024 and now surpass public support even during periods marked by multiple assassination attempts against President Trump and significant violence, such as the Charlie Kirk assassination and the January 6th Capitol breach.
Pape emphasizes that current support for political violence exceeds that seen during the most tumultuous recent episodes—including the attempts on Trump’s life and the insurrection attempt at the U.S. Capitol. The normalization of such widespread endorsement marks a decisive shift from isolated events of violence to broad-based approval.
Pape defines violent populism as the movement of political violence from the periphery to the mainstream. This change is characterized by tens of millions now endorsing violent acts in support of political aims, leading to strings of attacks rather than isolated incidents. Political violence is no longer a matter of small, fringe groups but now involves widespread participation and impact.
To explain the mechanism of this surge, Pape uses the wildfire analogy: the “combustible material” consists of the millions who are now primed to support or commit political violence, while the “sparks”—unexpected events like inflammatory tweets, police actions, or ballot disputes—are what set off these widespread outbreaks. The January 6th events serve as a prime example: Trump’s rhetoric and key tweets functioned as sparks, transforming a mass of simmering anger into violent action, such as breaching barriers and calls for execution of political opponents.
Pape warns that specific flashpoints—such as the presence of armed federal agents in cities during ballot counting—can ignite violent confrontations. Events surrounding elections are particularly volatile, as disputes and the actions of authorities risk activating the millions of Americans already predisposed to political violence.
Recalling January 6th, Pape underscores how Trump’s tweets—particularly blaming Mike Pence—acted as the direct spark for the crowd's violent breach of the Capitol and the now-infamous chants for Pence's execution. This illustrates how quickly combustible political passions can be inflamed by a leader’s words at a critical moment.
Pape cites the convergence of multiple crises—ballot disputes, federal agents in the streets, international conflicts like the Russian-Ukrainian war driving up energy prices, and ongoing mass protests—as an unprecedented risk factor for widespread urban violence. The feedback loop between these domestic and international crises amplifies the danger.
Violent Populism and Democratic Breakdown: Violence Goes Mainstream
Robert Pape outlines a series of practical "firebreak" solutions to prevent the most dangerous weeks from spiraling into catastrophe, emphasizing the power and responsibility of leaders and citizens alike.
Pape identifies three critical actions that leaders can take immediately to establish firebreaks and avoid disastrous escalation:
The first and core firebreak is a declaration by every current and newly elected member of Congress: no military escalation by the Trump administration against Iran until the new Congress is seated, unless Iran strikes first. This unified, clear statement would prevent unilateral actions during the critical transition period, blocking a dangerous spark from igniting wider conflict.
The second action, suitable for the election certification period, calls on every governor and mayor to publicly demand a two-month moratorium on the presence of federally armed agents in their cities or states unless explicitly requested by those local leaders. This removes a key spark for violence and ensures that local ballot processes and certifications are insulated from federal armed intervention, helping to keep confrontations in check.
The third action involves international mediation. Pape calls for countries like Pakistan, Qatar, and India—nations with a track record of quiet, effective conflict mediation—to come together and issue a united call for “hands off civilians” in all ongoing global conflicts. This means demanding that no state targets civilian infrastructure or residential areas, a crucial safeguard during periods of heightened international tension.
Pape stresses that the general public holds significant power to drive positive action. Citizens should email, text, or call their elected representatives and urge them to adopt these three firebreak measures. Direct communication from constituents can be a catalyst for implementing these pragmatic precautions, steering leaders away from dangerous or impulsive escalations.
Pape highlights how modern social media platforms and podcasts serve as important tools for increasing public awareness and influencing decision-makers. He recounts how discussions on shows like Steven Bartlett’s dramatically shifted momentum away from dangerous military action in t ...
Practical Solutions and Firebreaks: Preventing Catastrophic Escalation
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