In this episode of NPR's Book of the Day, Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber discuss their framework for understanding modern celebrity culture. They introduce a binary classification system dividing celebrities into "Whos" and "Thems," replacing traditional hierarchies and illustrating how figures like Kim Kardashian have blurred the boundaries between these categories through social media and reality TV.
The conversation explores how algorithm-driven platforms have fragmented celebrity culture, creating isolated ecosystems where fame exists within specific communities rather than universally. Finger and Weber also examine shifting attitudes toward celebrity endorsements, the role of loyal fan bases in helping celebrities recover from scandals, and how top-tier celebrities like Beyoncé maintain autonomy by bypassing traditional media obligations and building independent business ventures. The episode offers a framework for understanding how fame operates in the digital age.

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Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber introduce a new binary classification for celebrity status, replacing the traditional letter-grade hierarchy with two simple categories: "Whos" and "Thems."
Bobby Finger explains that "Whos" are celebrities who prompt confusion—people who make observers ask, "Who's that?" when they appear in headlines. Weber notes that Whos can enjoy selective recognition, like getting a free drink from an admirer, while still maintaining relative anonymity. In contrast, Finger describes "Thems" as instantly and universally recognized figures whose fame crosses all boundaries.
The hosts discuss how Kim Kardashian exemplifies the modern fluidity between these categories. Initially known primarily as a Paris Hilton associate, Kardashian rose to fame through reality TV, sponsored content, and social media—channels typically associated with "Who" status. Weber emphasizes that although Kardashian is now unquestionably a "Them," she was a "Who" not long ago, perfectly illustrating how contemporary fame can bridge these celebrity categories.
The rise of algorithm-driven platforms is fundamentally reshaping fame and celebrity culture.
Bobby Finger observes that algorithmic curation causes everyone to remain siloed in their own celebrity bubbles based on their interests. Within these personalized ecosystems, someone can achieve immense fame in one community yet remain virtually unknown outside those particular feeds. As Finger points out, this fragmentation means a person might be recognized as a "them" among some friends while being regarded as a "who?" by others.
Finger notes that more people from outside traditional entertainment can now achieve massive followings, democratizing celebrity. However, this proliferation of fame routes—including the rise of micro-celebrities with influence in niche communities—causes confusion about celebrity status and fundamentally fragments celebrity culture.
Ayesha Rascoe recalls when celebrities avoided domestic commercials to protect their reputations, only doing endorsement deals overseas. Lindsey Weber notes a cultural shift where people now celebrate celebrities for maximizing their earnings through the widespread phrase "get your bag." Rascoe points out that even enormously wealthy celebrities like LeBron James and Larry David now appear in advertisements they previously would have rejected.
Bobby Finger explains that lower-tier celebrities and influencers pioneered integrating sponsorship into their public personas. As the public became accustomed to this behavior and influencers found financial success, established A-list celebrities began asking themselves, "Where's mine?" This mainstream acceptance has turned endorsements into a routine aspect of even ultra-wealthy celebrity careers.
Lindsey Weber notes that today's scandal culture moves quickly and celebrities often recover from controversies with little lasting damage.
Weber explains that collective memory is exceptionally short in the current media environment, with continuous scandals meaning there's always something new competing for attention. She highlights that passionate "stan" fan communities remain loyal to celebrities regardless of controversies, actively defending their idols and continuing to support them financially. This means celebrities can sustain their earnings through a loyal minority audience without needing universal public approval or broad-based appeal for financial and cultural success.
Top celebrities increasingly demonstrate they can control their public persona by bypassing traditional media obligations and building independent ventures.
Ayesha Rascoe highlights how Beyoncé has removed herself from standard celebrity practices like interviews and press tours, while Bobby Finger points out that Tom Cruise has also made himself scarce in the media for over a decade. Finger argues that for A-list celebrities, the benefits of engaging with the media rarely justify the risks of scrutiny and potential backlash, as demonstrated when Cruise's recent film promotion sparked mockery and criticism.
Rascoe notes that Beyoncé has launched her own business ventures, including her liquor brand Sir Davis and hair care brand Sacred. By focusing on her own brands over conventional sponsorships, Beyoncé directly benefits from her business projects. This strategy demonstrates how celebrities at the pinnacle of fame can maintain autonomy and financial control, operating largely outside the traditional structures that once governed celebrity careers.
1-Page Summary
Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber introduce a new method to classify celebrity status, shifting away from the traditional, nuanced letter-grade hierarchy in favor of a simplified, binary model. In this system, celebrities fall into one of two camps: “Whos” or “Thems.” This approach reflects the realities of modern fame, especially as platforms like reality TV and social media shape celebrity culture.
Bobby Finger explains that the traditional A, B, C, D letter grades for celebrity tiers felt too complicated for today’s fame landscape. Instead, they devised a two-bucket system: Whos and Thems.
“Whos” are celebrities who provoke confusion or curiosity. As Finger puts it, these are the people who, when spotted in a headline or magazine cover, cause observers to ask, “Who’s that? Who?” Lindsey Weber adds that being a Who has its perks—these celebrities can enjoy recognition from select individuals, like getting a free drink at a bar from someone who admires their work, but can still blend in and avoid the relentless attention and scrutiny that plague household names. However, the anonymity can also feel precarious or frustrating, as one admirer’s recognition may be met with genuine confusion from others.
In contrast, Finger describes “Thems” as figures who are recognized immediately and universally. The reaction is, “Oh, them.” These are celebrities whose fame crosses all boundaries, instantly sparking recognition no matter where they go.
The hosts discuss how Kim Kardashian’s unique journey blurs the lines between these categories.
When first entering public consciousness, Kim Kardashian was more of a “Who”—noted primarily as an associate of Paris Hilton, rather than a standalone celebrity.
"Who" Vs. "Them": A Framework For Celebrity Fame Hierarchies
The rise of algorithm-driven platforms is fundamentally changing the landscape of fame and celebrity, creating both unprecedented paths to notoriety and fragmenting what it means to be a celebrity in the digital age.
Social media platforms now curate content based on users’ habits and preferences, resulting in isolated algorithmic bubbles. Bobby Finger observes that the algorithmic nature of feeds causes everyone to remain siloed in their own celebrity bubbles, whether those are built around music, sports, movies, or politics. This makes it easy to tune out anything that isn’t directly aligned with what the algorithm thinks a user wants to see.
Within these highly personalized ecosystems, perceptions of fame are intensely audience-specific. Someone can achieve immense fame in one community or corner of the internet, yet remain virtually unknown outside those particular feeds. As Bobby Finger points out, this fragmentation leads to scenarios where a person might be recognized as a notable "them" among some friends, while being regarded as a "who?" by others who have never encountered them through their own algorithmically curated content.
The continued expansion of internet platforms has created more paths to fame than ever before. Bobby Finger notes that now, more people from outside the traditional entertainment industry ...
Algorithms and Platforms Democratizing and Fragmenting Celebrity Culture
Ayesha Rascoe recalls a time when it was considered gauche for celebrities to appear in commercials for products within their home countries. Serious actors and musicians would only agree to do endorsement deals overseas, such as in Japan, to ensure those ads would not be seen in the U.S. Public attitudes equated visible product endorsement with a lack of dignity, leading prominent celebrities to avoid such work domestically to protect their reputations.
Endorsement deals were handled discreetly by doing commercials abroad, where American audiences were unlikely to see them. This allowed stars to earn extra money without damaging their image at home.
In the past, there was a strong cultural resistance to major celebrities using their fame to sell products on television in their home country. Participating openly in advertising was seen as shameless and could diminish a star’s perceived integrity.
Lindsey Weber notes a cultural shift in attitudes regarding celebrity endorsement deals. Where people once saw such behavior as shameless, current culture celebrates celebrities for maximizing their earnings—an attitude summed up by the widespread phrase “get your bag.” This celebration of wealth, access, and power encourages celebrities to embrace sponsorship opportunities without the fear of reputational harm.
Weber describes how it has become culturally acceptable, even admirable, for celebrities to make as much money as possible through side deals and sponsorships. Money-making behavior that was once frowned upon is now part of the public persona of even the wealthiest public figures.
Rascoe points out that even celebrities with enormous wealth, like LeBron James and Larry David, now appear in advertisements for products like gambling or cryptocurrency. These are ads they previously would have rejected to avoid any perceived loss of status.
Why Ultra-Wealthy Celebrities Endorse Products and Sponsorships
Lindsey Weber notes that today’s scandal culture moves quickly and celebrities often recover from controversies with little lasting damage, thanks to shifting public memory and resilient fan bases.
Weber explains that collective memory is exceptionally short in the current media environment. Continuous scandals and a nonstop news cycle mean there is always something new competing for the public’s interest. As a result, incidents that once seemed like major controversies “whiff out the window, very quickly.” Cultural memory no longer dwells on scandals long enough for most to inflict lasting reputational harm on celebrities.
Weber highlights that passionate fan communities, often called "stan" groups, remain loyal to their favorite celebrities regardless of any missteps or controversies. These fans actively defend their idols against criticism and continue to support them through purchasing merchandise, music, or tickets, and attending events. Celebrities thus retain support and economic power, as these groups are steadfast despite public criticism or negative headlines.
Scandal Culture & Celebrity Resilience: Short Memory & Fan Bases Aid Recovery
Top celebrities increasingly demonstrate that it is possible to control their public persona and business interests by bypassing traditional media obligations and building independent ventures.
Ayesha Rascoe highlights how Beyoncé has completely removed herself from many standard celebrity practices such as granting interviews, talking to reporters, and participating in press tours. Beyoncé rarely does sponsorship deals and chooses to focus on her own projects, maintaining more control over her image without the need to engage with the broader press.
Bobby Finger points out that Tom Cruise has also made himself scarce in the media for over a decade, rarely granting access or giving interviews. When Cruise finally reemerges for significant movie promotions, such as the recent GQ profile or to promote his new film "Digger," this return to the spotlight invites increased scrutiny and mockery, underlining the risks involved with engaging in high-profile media appearances.
Tom Cruise’s recent effort to promote a major film brought intense media attention and became a source of jokes and mockery. This outcome exemplifies the risk that top celebrities face when stepping back into the spotlight after extended media avoidance.
Bobby Finger argues that for A-list celebrities like Tom Cruise and Beyoncé, the benefits of engaging with the media rarely justify the risks of scrutiny and potential backlash. The elevated status of these "top-tier thems" frees them from needing regular press exposure and allows them to avoid the pitfalls of overexposure or criticism.
Celebrity Autonomy: How the Famous Can Opt Out of Media Obligations and Maintain Control
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