Podcasts > Modern Wisdom > #1041 - Dr Debra Lieberman - Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister?

#1041 - Dr Debra Lieberman - Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister?

By Chris Williamson

In this episode of Modern Wisdom, Dr. Debra Lieberman discusses how the human brain develops mechanisms to prevent incestuous relationships. She explains how early-life experiences like breastfeeding and co-residence help people identify and develop natural aversions to close relatives, while also noting how modern practices like adoption and sperm donation can affect these built-in detection systems.

The episode explores gender differences in incest aversion, with women showing stronger automatic disgust responses than men, potentially due to different reproductive costs. Lieberman also examines the evolutionary psychology of crying and tears, describing how this behavior serves as a complex signaling mechanism that changes as people mature from childhood to adulthood.

#1041 - Dr Debra Lieberman - Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister?

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#1041 - Dr Debra Lieberman - Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister?

1-Page Summary

Kin Detection and Incest Avoidance Mechanisms

Debra Lieberman explains how the human brain has evolved sophisticated systems to prevent incestuous relationships. These systems rely on childhood experiences like breastfeeding, co-residence, and witnessing caregiving behaviors to identify close relatives. When these cues are present during childhood, they typically trigger a natural sexual aversion toward those identified as relatives.

However, modern practices like adoption and sperm donation can disrupt these natural kin detection mechanisms. Lieberman notes that adopted siblings or donor-conceived individuals who meet their genetic half-siblings might experience attraction due to missing these early-life kinship cues, as merely knowing someone is a relative doesn't automatically create sexual aversion.

Sex Differences in Incest Aversion

Research reveals significant gender differences in incest aversion. According to Lieberman, women consistently display strong, automatic disgust responses to incest-related concepts, likely due to the high reproductive costs associated with pregnancy and childrearing.

Men's responses, however, are more variable. Lieberman's research suggests that men's incest aversion can be influenced by physical attractiveness, with some men indicating they might consider relationships with distant relatives like cousins. This flexibility in men's responses may stem from their lower reproductive costs compared to women.

The Evolutionary Psychology of Crying and Tears

Lieberman describes crying as a complex signaling mechanism that communicates vulnerability or high-value states. Tears can serve multiple purposes: they can signal the need for support, communicate the importance of relationships or events, and help regulate emotional states.

As individuals develop from childhood to adulthood, their crying patterns change. Lieberman explains that while children might cry from physical pain or unmet needs, adults typically cry in response to more complex emotional triggers, reflecting a maturation in emotional expression and regulation.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Kin detection mechanisms are evolved psychological systems that help individuals recognize genetic relatives to avoid inbreeding. Breastfeeding and co-residence during early childhood create familiarity and emotional bonds, signaling shared family membership. These early-life interactions serve as cues that the brain uses to categorize others as kin. This learned recognition reduces the likelihood of sexual attraction toward close relatives.
  • Early-life kinship cues create a learned association between a person and familial roles, forming a mental template of who is "family." This association triggers innate mechanisms that produce sexual aversion to those identified as close kin. Mere knowledge of genetic relatedness lacks the emotional and experiential context needed to activate these aversive responses. Without early bonding cues, the brain may not categorize someone as kin, so sexual attraction can occur despite genetic ties.
  • Women have higher reproductive costs because pregnancy and childrearing require significant time, energy, and biological investment. This makes avoiding incest crucial to prevent genetic defects and ensure offspring survival. Disgust responses evolved as a protective mechanism to reduce the likelihood of mating with close relatives. Men face lower reproductive costs, so their incest aversion is less rigid and more influenced by other factors.
  • Men's incest aversion varies because evolutionary pressures on male reproductive strategies differ from females. Men may weigh potential genetic risks against reproductive opportunities, leading to more flexible responses. Physical attractiveness can override aversion signals, as it may indicate genetic fitness or unrelatedness. This flexibility reflects a trade-off between avoiding inbreeding and maximizing reproductive success.
  • Crying triggers the release of neuropeptides that reduce stress and promote bonding. Tears activate facial muscles and vocalizations that elicit caregiving responses from others. Evolutionarily, this signaling increased survival by ensuring help during distress. Psychologically, crying communicates internal states nonverbally, fostering social connection and empathy.
  • As children grow, they develop better control over their emotions and learn socially appropriate ways to express feelings. This maturation means adults cry less from immediate physical discomfort and more from complex emotions like empathy, loss, or frustration. Emotional regulation involves managing when and how to show emotions to fit social contexts. Thus, adult crying reflects deeper emotional understanding and self-control compared to childhood.
  • Modern practices like adoption and sperm donation separate genetic relatedness from early-life social cues used for kin recognition. Without shared childhood experiences such as co-residence or caregiving, individuals may not develop the innate sexual aversion toward genetic relatives. This can lead to situations where genetically related individuals, like donor-conceived half-siblings, might not instinctively avoid sexual attraction. Thus, these practices can unintentionally weaken natural incest avoidance mechanisms.

Counterarguments

  • The idea that childhood experiences are the sole determinants of incest aversion may be too simplistic, as genetic factors and cultural influences could also play significant roles.
  • The assertion that women have a stronger automatic disgust response to incest may not account for individual variations and the influence of personal experiences and cultural norms.
  • The suggestion that men might consider relationships with distant relatives based on physical attractiveness could be seen as a generalization that does not represent all men's attitudes or behaviors.
  • The evolutionary explanations for crying and tears might not fully account for the social and cultural factors that influence emotional expression.
  • The concept that crying serves as a signaling mechanism might be too narrow, as crying can also be a private, personal experience not intended to communicate with others.
  • The idea that men's incest aversion is more flexible due to lower reproductive costs could be challenged by pointing out that men also face social and psychological consequences from incestuous relationships.
  • The evolutionary psychology approach to understanding human behavior, including incest aversion and crying, may not encompass the full complexity of these phenomena and could benefit from integrating perspectives from other disciplines such as sociology and anthropology.

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#1041 - Dr Debra Lieberman - Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister?

Kin Detection and Incest Avoidance Mechanisms

The human brain has evolved sophisticated systems for kin detection to prevent incestuous relationships, leveraging cues from childhood experiences. The discussion, led by Debra Lieberman, explores the intricacies of these mechanisms.

Evolutionary Systems Prevent Incestuous Relationships

Cues Like Breastfeeding, Co-residence, and Resemblance Reveal Kinship Detection

Debra Lieberman explains that a set of kinship cues present during childhood, such as breastfeeding, co-residence, and observing who invests care in whom, help individuals avoid mating with close genetic relatives. These cues are used by the brain to compute an estimate of kinship, triggering a sexual aversion toward those identified as relatives. The concept of the Westermarck effect is central, whereby co-residence duration is a key cue for the development of incest aversion.

Kinship Detection Prevents Inbreeding Harms By Triggering Aversion To Mating With Relatives

Children raised together throughout childhood typically develop a sexual aversion to one another as adults. Lieberman’s research suggests that without typical kinship cues like witnessing a mother's pregnancy or breastfeeding, the incest avoidance mechanism might not be triggered, making marriages between individuals who lack these early-life cues more acceptable in certain cultural contexts.

Adoption and Sperm Donation May Disrupt Kin Detection, Risking Attraction Between Relatives

Adopted Siblings May Develop Attraction Due to Missing Kinship Cues

In the case of adoption, the adopted siblings may develop an attraction to one another if they miss the kinship cues necessary for triggering incest avoidance. Lieberman’s mention of the natural experiment in Taiwanese cultural practices where adopted children were often breastfed by the adopted mother shows a disruption in kin dete ...

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Kin Detection and Incest Avoidance Mechanisms

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • The Westermarck effect is a psychological hypothesis proposing that people who live in close domestic proximity during early childhood become desensitized to sexual attraction toward each other. This effect is thought to be an evolved mechanism to prevent inbreeding and its genetic risks. It was first described by Finnish anthropologist Edvard Westermarck in the early 20th century. The effect explains why siblings or close childhood peers typically do not develop sexual interest in one another despite genetic relatedness.
  • Breastfeeding signals a close maternal bond, indicating caregiving and shared family environment. Co-residence means living together during early childhood, which the brain uses as a proxy for genetic relatedness. Resemblance, both physical and behavioral, helps individuals recognize genetic similarity through familiar traits. These cues collectively inform the brain's assessment of kinship to trigger appropriate social and sexual behaviors.
  • The brain uses early-life social and sensory cues to form mental templates of close kin, which influence emotional and sexual responses. Neurobiological systems associate these templates with feelings of familial closeness and inhibit sexual attraction through aversive emotional responses. This aversion likely evolved to reduce inbreeding, which can cause genetic disorders. Hormonal and neural pathways modulate these responses, reinforcing avoidance of mating with those identified as kin.
  • A "natural experiment" refers to an observational study where external circumstances create conditions similar to a controlled experiment. In Taiwanese cultural practices, adopted children being breastfed by adoptive mothers unintentionally altered typical kinship cues. This situation allows researchers to study the effects of disrupted kin detection without manipulating variables directly. It provides real-world evidence on how early-life cues influence incest avoidance mechanisms.
  • Genetic sexual attraction (GSA) refers to a strong sexual or romantic attraction that can occur between close relatives who meet as adults for the first time. It happens because they share many genetic traits, which can create a sense of familiarity and compatibility. Normally, early-life co-residence triggers aversion to such attraction, but donor-conceived siblings lack this shared upbringing. Without these earl ...

Counterarguments

  • The kin detection mechanisms may not be as universally effective as suggested, considering that incestuous relationships do occur in some societies and contexts, indicating that cultural factors can override or influence these mechanisms.
  • The cues mentioned, such as breastfeeding and co-residence, may not be the only or primary factors in kin detection; other social and environmental factors could also play significant roles.
  • The Westermarck effect, while supported by some evidence, is not universally accepted, and there are documented cases where individuals raised closely together do not develop sexual aversion to each other.
  • The assumption that adopted siblings will develop attraction if they miss kinship cues is not always true; many adopted siblings form strong familial bonds without biological cues.
  • The concept of genetic sexual attraction is controversial and not widely recognized or supported within the scientific community; more research is needed to understand its prevalence and causes.
  • The impact ...

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#1041 - Dr Debra Lieberman - Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister?

Sex Differences in Incest Aversion

Research into human behavior continues to reveal complex patterns, particularly in areas of sexual behavior and taboo subjects such as incest.

Women Display Stronger, More Automatic Disgust to Incest Stimuli Than Men

In studies focusing on the responses to incest, it has been found that women uniformly demonstrate strong aversion to incestuous acts, with little variation among individuals. Women consistently express high levels of disgust when presented with concepts of engaging in sexual behaviors with a sibling.

Higher Reproductive Costs Drive Women's Evolution of Incest Avoidance

Debra Lieberman delves into evolutionary factors that may contribute to this strong aversion among females. She discusses the high reproductive costs associated with gestation and lactation, which underscore the importance of careful mate selection. Making a poor choice could result in significant penalties, which is hypothesized to drive the evolution of incest avoidance in women.

Men's Incest Aversion Is Flexible and Can Be Overridden by Attractiveness

Conversely, men have shown a broader range of responses to incest, with some finding it less objectionable. This variability was illustrated when one male participant smiled in response to the idea of tongue-kissing a sibling, a reaction that deviated from the expected disgust.

Me ...

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Sex Differences in Incest Aversion

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Counterarguments

  • The studies may suffer from cultural biases, as attitudes toward incest can vary widely across different societies, and the research may not account for these cultural differences.
  • The research might not fully consider the role of socialization and learned behavior in shaping responses to incest, which could be significant alongside evolutionary factors.
  • The findings could be influenced by the specific methodology used in the studies, such as the way questions are framed or the context in which participants are asked to consider incestuous scenarios.
  • The variability in men's responses could be due to factors other than reproductive costs, such as social norms, personal experiences, or psychological factors not accounted for in the studies.
  • The studies may not represent the full spectrum of gender and sexual identities, potentially overlooking how non-binary individuals or those with diverse sexual orientations perceive incest.
  • The concep ...

Actionables

  • You can deepen your understanding of human behavior by observing and journaling about your own reactions to discussions of taboo topics. When you encounter conversations or media that touch on incest or other taboos, take note of your emotional and physical reactions. This self-observation can help you become more aware of your innate responses and how they align with the patterns discussed in the podcast.
  • Enhance your critical thinking skills by comparing different cultural attitudes toward incest. Research various cultures and historical periods to see how incest taboos vary. This can give you a broader perspective on how social and biological factors influence human behavior and norms.
  • Improve your communication in re ...

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#1041 - Dr Debra Lieberman - Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister?

The Evolutionary Psychology of Crying and Tears

Crying and Tears Signal Vulnerability or High-Value State

Crying is utilized by individuals low in leverage to communicate to others the intensity of a particular state or cost. It's a tool used by those with less power to persuade others to stop imposing costs or to resume delivering benefits. Debra Lieberman highlights how tears can communicate the value placed on certain events or relationships. When individuals feel out-leveraged or not valued, especially in group situations, tears highlight a state of vulnerability or tension. This can also signal the importance or deep emotional significance of a relationship or event, as seen when people are moved to tears by life-saving actions like donating a kidney.

Crying Communicates Costs or Loss, Motivating Others to Stop Imposing Them

Crying shows others the need state of an individual, especially in contexts like grief, indicating the person is upset and in need of support—an automatic response that would attract help and resources from a community. Lieberman mentions that tears can communicate a desire to stop others from imposing costs on the individual or to elicit more benefits. This behavior might have originated from an adaptation to harmful environmental stimuli, such as acids from an onion, which demonstrated something negative affecting an individual and signaled vulnerability.

Tears Reveal Value of a Relationship or Event

Lieberman also notes that tears may communicate significant cost or loss of a relationship, which could be termed as a data dump. It might be a response to the realization of the lost value that someone cared about had for you. Chris Williamson's question about why we cry when alone is addressed by Lieberman, who suggests that individuals often simulate scenarios in their minds, emotionally reacting to events that reveal the value of relationships or events—even in solitude.

Crying Serves a Self-Regulatory Function, Recalibrating Emotional State

Crying May Offload Emotional Distress or Facilitate Bonding

Crying signals an individual's need to adjust what is being demanded of them, particularly when these demands threaten their interests within a relationship. Crying in reaction to anger, like that observed in women who feel undervalued and unable to assert themselves physicall ...

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The Evolutionary Psychology of Crying and Tears

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • In social or emotional contexts, "leverage" refers to the power or influence one person has over another in a relationship or interaction. Being "out-leveraged" means having less power or fewer resources to affect outcomes or decisions. This imbalance can make individuals feel vulnerable or less valued. Crying can be a way to signal this vulnerability and attempt to regain some influence or support.
  • Crying can function as a social signal that influences others by showing vulnerability, which may prompt empathy and support. This behavior likely evolved because expressing distress increased the chances of receiving help or avoiding harm. By visibly demonstrating emotional or physical need, individuals can alter others' actions to reduce threats or gain assistance. Thus, crying acts as a nonverbal strategy to change social dynamics in one's favor.
  • In this context, "data dump" refers to the sudden release of accumulated emotional information through crying. It means expressing a large amount of feelings or realizations all at once. This helps the individual process complex emotions related to loss or value. The term draws an analogy to quickly transferring large amounts of data in computing.
  • The evolutionary origin of tears linked to environmental stimuli like onion acids refers to the idea that tears initially evolved as a protective response to irritants. When substances like onion acids contact the eyes, they cause irritation and trigger tear production to flush out harmful agents. This reflexive tearing signaled vulnerability and distress, which over time may have been co-opted for social communication. Thus, the physical reaction to environmental threats laid the groundwork for tears to become emotional signals.
  • [restricted term] is a hormone and neurotransmitter that plays a key role in forming social bonds, such as between parents and children or romantic partners. It helps reduce stress and anxiety, promoting feelings of trust and safety. [restricted term] release during social interactions can enhance emotional connection and attachment. It also influences emotional regulation by calming the nervous system during distress.
  • Crying as a self-regulatory function means it helps manage and reduce intense emotions internally. It can act like a release valve, lowering stress hormones and calming the nervous system. This process helps restore emotional balance after distressing experiences. Additionally, crying can promote social bonding by signaling vulnerability and eliciting comfort from others.
  • Crying as a signal of vulnerability shows that a person is in a weak or needy position, seeking help or protection. In contrast, crying as a signal of a high-value emotional state highlights the deep importance or significance of a relationship or event to the individual. The former invites support by revealing weakness, while the latter emphasizes the emotional weight or cost involved. Both signals influence others’ responses but serve different social functions.
  • When alone, peopl ...

Counterarguments

  • While crying can signal vulnerability, it can also be a response to a wide range of emotions, not just those related to low leverage or power dynamics. For example, people may cry out of happiness, relief, or even when overwhelmed by beauty or art.
  • The interpretation of tears as a signal of vulnerability or high-value emotional state is not universal and can vary greatly across cultures and individuals. In some cultures, crying may be seen as a sign of weakness or be less socially acceptable, especially for men.
  • The idea that crying is primarily a tool for those with less power could be challenged by instances where individuals in positions of power or authority cry without any apparent loss of status or leverage.
  • The evolutionary perspective on crying as a response to harmful stimuli does not account for the complexity of human emotional expression and the social functions of crying beyond signaling vulnerability.
  • The assertion that tears reveal the significant cost or loss of a valued relationship or event may not always hold true, as people can cry for less profound reasons, such as frustration, stress, or even due to physiological factors like tiredness.
  • The claim that people cry alone because they simulate emotionally significant scenarios could be challenged by alternative explanations, such as the release of stress hormones or a natural response to physical states of discomfort.
  • The idea that crying serves a self-regulatory function and helps to recalibrate emotional states could be complemented by research suggesting that not all individuals find crying cathartic or helpful in managing emotions. ...

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