#1031 - Macken Murphy - 18 Harsh Realities of Modern Dating
In this episode of Modern Wisdom, Macken Murphy and Chris Williamson explore research findings about modern dating and relationships. The discussion covers physical preferences between genders, including specific traits that men and women find attractive, and examines how attractiveness levels can affect relationship dynamics. They also address how past dating experience influences potential partnerships differently for men and women.
The conversation extends to broader societal shifts in dating and mating patterns, including changes in how educated, high-earning women approach partner selection. Murphy and Williamson examine various cultural examples of relationship dynamics, discuss the evolutionary basis for certain mating behaviors, and explore how socioeconomic conditions and physical characteristics influence modern dating prospects.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Dec 11, 2025 episode of the Modern Wisdom
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1-Page Summary
Mate Preferences and Perceptions of Attractiveness
A discussion on how mate preferences and attractiveness standards vary between genders reveals several key insights about physical preferences and their implications.
According to research by Proust and colleagues, women prefer men with penis sizes larger than average (6.3 inches in length and 4.8-5 inches in circumference), though they tend to be flexible about this preference in practice. Chris Williamson and Macken Murphy note that women generally favor men with a protective physique—strong hands, big arms, and broad shoulders—over extremely lean or overly muscular builds.
The hosts explore how attractiveness affects relationships differently across genders. According to Williams and Thomas's research, women tend to have stronger negative reactions to male inexperience than vice versa. Additionally, highly attractive individuals often face unique relationship challenges due to perceived alternative mating options, which can lead to competition and relationship strain.
Socio-Sexual Differences Between Men and Women
Murphy and Williamson discuss distinct patterns in male and female sexual behavior. Men typically show higher socio-sexuality, displaying greater desire for variety and openness to casual sex. They note that men's stronger aversion to partner infidelity stems from evolutionary concerns about cuckoldry.
The hosts examine the "gay uncle" mechanism as a possible explanation for the evolutionary persistence of homosexuality. Murphy points to the Samoan Fa'afafine as an example, where third-gender individuals contribute to their nieces' and nephews' welfare, though he expresses skepticism about this being a comprehensive explanation for homosexuality's persistence.
Trends in Mating and Relationship Dynamics
Modern relationship patterns show significant shifts, particularly in how educated, high-earning women increasingly "marry down" in status. Murphy introduces the term "hyperandry" to describe this phenomenon, noting that while society is becoming more accepting of these arrangements, research indicates they may lead to poorer relationship outcomes.
Murphy's ongoing research examines how women's mate preferences adapt to changing socioeconomic conditions, citing examples like the Palyan of South India, where female provisioning exceeds male provisioning. The hosts also discuss obesity's impact on marriage and birth rates, with Williamson introducing the concept of "mirror widow distortion" to explain how weight changes affect self-perception and mating prospects.
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Actionables
- You can enhance your physical appeal by focusing on moderate strength training, particularly for your upper body, to develop a protective physique that's neither too lean nor overly muscular. Start with exercises like push-ups, pull-ups, and dumbbell presses, which you can do at home or at a local gym, aiming for balanced development rather than extreme bulk.
- Improve your relationship experience by engaging in social activities that allow for deeper connections, such as joining interest-based clubs or attending workshops that focus on communication and interpersonal skills. This can help you gain confidence and reduce any negative perceptions associated with inexperience.
- Reflect on your own health and self-perception by keeping a "mirror journal" where you record your feelings and thoughts when you look in the mirror each day. Use this to track how your self-image changes with any weight fluctuations and to identify patterns that might influence your social interactions and self-esteem.
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Mate Preferences and Perceptions of Attractiveness
The hosts delve into the complex world of mate preferences and perceptions of attractiveness, discussing how differing standards for aesthetics and suitability vary between genders and within different social contexts.
Women Prefer Moderately Lean, Formidable Men Over Extremely Lean or Very Muscular Men
The discussion highlights that while men often strive for an extremely lean appearance, women tend to prefer a man with a more moderate physique.
Women Prefer 6.3-inch Length, 4.8-5-Inch Circumference Penis, Larger Than Average
The best study on the subject by Proust and colleagues demonstrates that women, when interacting with 3D models of various penis-shaped objects, have a preference for sizes larger than average for long-term relationships. The ideal size is considered to be 6.3 inches in length, a figure higher than the average 5.16 inches. This places it at about the 95th percentile of size, comparable to a height of six-foot-two. For circumference, the preference hovers around 4.8 to 5 inches, surpassing the average circumference of 4.59 inches.
Women express a preference for a penis size that is larger than any they had ever encountered. However, despite these preferences, women are likely to be more flexible in practice. Additionally, there is a threshold for penis size; if too large, it may be uncomfortable. It's noted that about 27% of women reported ending a relationship at least in part due to a partner's insufficient size.
Women Prefer a Protective Physique Over an Overly Shredded or Bodybuilder-Like Appearance
Chris Williamson and Macken Murphy discuss the concept of a protective physique, where women favor men who look more formidable or likely to win in a fight. Traits such as strong hands, big arms, and broad shoulders contribute to this perception, marking a departure from the overly lean or muscular look. The notion of "dad bods" is brought up, suggesting women might favor men who appear to have more paternal qualities instead of those preoccupied with excessive self-beautification.
Asymmetry in Perceptions and Responses to Attractiveness by Gender
The podcast explores how men and women respond differently to attractivness and how it impacts relationships.
Men Tolerate Less Attractive Women; Women Dislike Less Attractive Partners
Murphy discusses findings from a paper by Williams and Thomas that revea ...
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Mate Preferences and Perceptions of Attractiveness
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Counterarguments
- The preference for a "moderate, formidable physique" may be culturally or contextually dependent, and different cultures or individuals may have varying preferences.
- The study on penis size preferences may not be representative of all women, as preferences can be highly subjective and influenced by a multitude of factors beyond physical measurements.
- The statistic about 27% of women ending relationships due to insufficient penis size could be misleading without understanding the broader context of those relationships and other contributing factors.
- The concept of "dad bods" being preferred is a generalization and does not account for the diverse range of preferences among women.
- The discussion on attractiveness and relationship dynamics may oversimplify complex interpersonal relationships and not account for the importance of personality, compatibility, and other non-physical traits.
- The negative reaction to male virgins could be influenced by societal stereotypes and may not reflect a universal preference or bias among women.
- The challenges faced by attractive individuals in relationships could be mitigated by factors suc ...
Actionables
- You can focus on building a balanced physique by incorporating strength training and moderate cardiovascular exercises into your fitness routine, aiming for a look that's strong yet not overly lean. This approach aligns with the preference for a protective physique and can be achieved through a mix of weightlifting exercises that target major muscle groups and moderate cardio sessions a few times a week to maintain overall health without pushing towards extreme leanness.
- Enhance your social and emotional intelligence by engaging in activities that foster empathy, such as volunteering or joining community groups, to develop paternal qualities that may be attractive to potential partners. By participating in these activities, you not only contribute positively to your community but also demonstrate qualities like kindness, responsibility, and the ability to care for others, which can be appealing beyond physical attributes.
- Practice self-awareness and communi ...
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Socio-Sexual Differences Between Men and Women
Conversations between Murphy and Williamson shed light on the varying socio-sexual patterns between men and women, with implications for genetic propagation and relationship dynamics.
Men Exhibit Higher Socio-Sexuality: Greater Desire For Variety and Openness to Casual Sex
Murphy discusses the concept of "body count" as an indicator of socio-sexuality, suggesting that in his experience, men view having a sexual history as normal and expected, often equating a lack of sexual history with social maladjustment. This is reflective of a broader pattern where men, on average, tend to desire more variety in their sexual partners and are more open to casual sex — traits that feature heavily in non-monogamous settings.
Williamson and Murphy highlight that socio-sexual desires could resurface as a dominant trait in men, potentially leading to infidelity, especially when relationship satisfaction wanes. They acknowledge the implication that socio-sexual desires might affect non-monogamous benefits and dynamics differently for men and women but offer no definitive stance on this difference. However, they do mention that men and women may cheat with different types of people.
Both hosts also touch on the "optionality distress," indicating that individuals with many dating options, such as attractive women and high-status men, might experience stress due to these options. Murphy refers to individuals with a low level of jealousy and high level of extra-pair mating motivation, which entails a strong desire for multiple sexual partners.
Men's Risk of Cuckoldry Fuels Strong Aversion to Partner's Sexual Infidelity
Murphy and Williamson discuss an asymmetry in socio-sexual behavior where men engage in behavior to offset the risk of cuckoldry, indicating a strong aversion to partner's sexual infidelity. This aversion, Murphy states, can be considered "true disaster mode for a male" due to the evolutionary costs associated with raising a child not genetically theirs.
Studies suggest that men are more adverse to their partners being sexually intimate with others, as opposed to being emotionally intimate, due to the risk of cuckoldry and the resulting genetic propagation concerns. Williamson notes a system where this aversion might be strategically overlooked, as in the Himba society of Namibia, where men tolerate their wives' infidelity, since men benefit by having extramarital affairs themselves, thus spreading their genes in other nests.
"Gay Uncle" Mechanism May Explain Evolutionary Persistence of Homosexuality
Murphy discusses the "rich gay uncle" hypothesis, which posits that homo ...
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Socio-Sexual Differences Between Men and Women
Additional Materials
Counterarguments
- Socio-sexual desires and behaviors are influenced by a complex interplay of biological, cultural, and individual factors, and it may be overly simplistic to attribute these differences solely to evolutionary pressures.
- The concept of "body count" and its social implications can vary widely across different cultures and communities, and it is not universally seen as a measure of social adjustment or success.
- The idea that men are more open to casual sex than women may be influenced by social norms and expectations rather than inherent differences, and some research suggests that women's socio-sexuality may be underreported due to societal stigma.
- The assertion that socio-sexual desires in men can lead to infidelity may overlook the fact that infidelity is a complex behavior with many contributing factors, including relationship dissatisfaction, opportunity, and individual values.
- The concept of "optionality distress" may not apply universally, as some individuals may find having multiple dating options empowering rather than stressful.
- The strong aversion to sexual infidelity attributed to men may not be universal, as some men may be more concerned with emotional infidelity or have different responses based on their personal values and the context of their relationship.
- The "rich gay uncle" hypothesis is just on ...
Actionables
- You can explore your socio-sexual desires by journaling to better understand your personal attitudes towards relationships and fidelity. Write down your feelings about monogamy, non-monogamy, and what fidelity means to you. This self-reflection can help you communicate your needs and boundaries more clearly in relationships.
- Consider volunteering for organizations that support diverse family structures or sexual orientations to gain a broader perspective on different societal norms. By engaging with communities that have different views on relationships, like those that are more accepting of non-monogamy, you can develop a more nuanced understanding of your own socio-sexual values.
- Create a "decision tree ...
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Trends in Mating and Relationship Dynamics
The podcast delves into the shifts seen in relationship dynamics, showcasing how social evolution is affecting love and marriage.
Educated, High-Earning Women Marrying Down In Status
The conversation highlights a transformative trend where highly educated, successful women are often coupling with men of lesser socioeconomic status.
"Hypergamy Shift: Cultural Tensions and Relationship Challenges"
Macken Murphy addresses the reversal of traditional matchmaking norms, a phenomenon he terms hyperandry—when men "marry up" in status. Societal adjustments and acceptance of high-earning women marrying men of lower economic standing are noted, now often resulting in benign humor rather than humiliation. This shift is apparent in Europe, where data suggests an increased occurrence of marriages with a higher-status woman linked to poorer relationship outcomes, including higher chances of domestic violence. Thus, cultural adaptations reflect changes in attitudes toward these relationship dynamics, despite potential tensions.
Researchers Examine how Women's Mate Preferences Adapt To the Mating Market Changes
Researchers are investigating whether women's mate preferences for "marrying up" are malleable or rigid. Murphy's research, currently under peer review, probes how behavior adjusts to socioeconomic changes. He discusses the flexibility of mate preferences and society's ability to adapt over time, pointing towards evidence from cultural anthropology, such as the Palyan of South India, where female provisioning exceeds male provisioning, contrary to traditional Western expectations.
Obesity's Impact on Marriage and Birth Rates in Developed Countries
...
Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary
Trends in Mating and Relationship Dynamics
Additional Materials
Counterarguments
- While the trend of educated, high-earning women marrying men of lower socioeconomic status is noted, it's important to consider that individual relationships are complex and cannot be solely defined by socioeconomic status.
- The term "marrying down" may be seen as pejorative and not reflective of the value of individuals beyond their socioeconomic status.
- The concept of hyperandry could be challenged by the argument that marriage should not be viewed as a status transaction but rather as a partnership based on mutual respect and love.
- The link between higher-status women in marriages and poorer relationship outcomes, including domestic violence, could be influenced by numerous factors, and it's critical to avoid oversimplifying or misattributing causation.
- The adaptability of women's mate preferences might not only be a response to socioeconomic changes but also to broader shifts in gender roles, personal aspirations, and individual empowerment.
- The impact of obesity on marriage and birth rates could be confounded by other social and economic factors, and it's important to approach this topic sensit ...
Actionables
- You can reflect on your own relationship preferences by journaling about what qualities you value in a partner and why, considering how these preferences align with or diverge from societal norms. For example, if you're a woman who has traditionally sought partners with higher socioeconomic status, question what drives this preference and how open you are to reversing these roles. This self-reflection can help you understand your own biases and how they may be influenced by social evolution.
- Engage in conversations with friends or family about the changing dynamics of relationships, focusing on the acceptance of different socioeconomic pairings. This can be a dinner table discussion where you share observations and ask others about their views on women "marrying down" or men "marrying up." By doing this, you contribute to normalizing these shifts in your social circle and potentially reduce stigma.
- Create a personal health pl ...
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