Podcasts > Modern Wisdom > #1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

#1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

By Chris Williamson

In this episode of Modern Wisdom, Jessica Baum and Chris Williamson examine why people often form relationships with partners who mirror their childhood experiences, even when these patterns are unhealthy. They explore how the body's nervous system processes safety and connection, explaining that what feels familiar isn't always what's best for us in relationships.

The conversation delves into the complexities of emotional healing, emphasizing that personal growth often requires more than individual effort—it needs supportive relationships that help regulate our nervous systems. Baum and Williamson also address the specific challenges men face in expressing emotions, discussing how societal expectations of masculinity can create barriers to seeking emotional support and maintaining healthy relationships.

#1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

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#1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

1-Page Summary

Attachment, Safety, and Vulnerability in Relationships: Psychology and Neuroscience

In a discussion between Jessica Baum and Chris Williamson, they explore how safety in relationships goes beyond the mere absence of danger. Baum explains that true safety involves feeling connected and maintaining openness even during challenging times, emphasizing that it includes having a support network when things aren't okay.

Safety and Somatic Awareness

Baum highlights how safety and connection are deeply rooted in our bodies through implicit sensory memories. She explains that our nervous system responds to connection through physical sensations, which are stored as memories from infancy. These bodily responses, such as a dropping gut or racing heart, play a crucial role in how we perceive and engage in relationships.

Understanding True Connection vs. Familiar Patterns

According to Baum, people often mistake familiarity for safety, unconsciously recreating childhood dynamics in adult relationships. She shares personal experiences of leaving a relationship that mirrored her childhood trauma, illustrating how early patterns can resurface. Williamson and Baum discuss how intense emotions, like those experienced during "love bombing," can be mistaken for genuine intimacy, particularly by those with histories of neglect or abuse.

The Role of Co-regulation in Healing

Baum emphasizes that healing from emotional wounds requires more than individual work; it necessitates supportive relationships and "anchors" – emotionally present people who provide safety for the nervous system to adjust. She explains that partners' nervous systems constantly communicate, affecting their sense of safety and connection, making co-regulation crucial for healing attachment wounds.

Men's Emotional Expression Challenges

Baum and Williamson discuss how societal expectations make it particularly difficult for men to access and express emotions. They note that masculine ideals of independence and self-sufficiency can hinder relational work, while fears of appearing weak often prevent men from expressing emotional needs. Williamson points out that simply telling men to "talk about it" isn't enough, as evidenced by middle-aged men who died by suicide despite seeking help.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Implicit sensory memories are unconscious bodily sensations linked to early experiences, formed before we develop language. These memories are stored in the nervous system and brain areas like the amygdala and brainstem. They influence how we react emotionally and physically to relationships without conscious awareness. This means our body "remembers" feelings of safety or threat from infancy, shaping adult responses.
  • Co-regulation is the process where two people’s nervous systems influence and help balance each other’s emotional states. It often happens through nonverbal cues like tone of voice, facial expressions, and touch. This mutual regulation helps individuals feel safe and calm, especially during stress or emotional distress. Over time, co-regulation supports emotional healing and strengthens attachment bonds.
  • "Love bombing" is a manipulation tactic where someone overwhelms another with excessive affection and attention to gain control. It often creates intense emotional highs that can feel like genuine intimacy but are insincere. This behavior can lead to dependency and confusion, especially in people with past neglect or trauma. Over time, love bombing may be followed by withdrawal or abuse, disrupting trust and safety.
  • Partners' nervous systems communicate through nonverbal cues like facial expressions, tone of voice, and body language. These signals trigger automatic physiological responses, influencing each other's emotional states. This process, called co-regulation, helps partners maintain or restore emotional balance. It occurs unconsciously and is essential for feeling safe and connected.
  • "Anchors" are individuals who offer consistent emotional support, helping to stabilize a person's feelings during stress. They help regulate the nervous system by providing calm, reassurance, and presence, which can reduce anxiety and fear responses. This steady support allows the brain to feel safe enough to process and heal from past emotional wounds. Over time, these relationships help retrain the nervous system toward healthier patterns of connection.
  • Bodily responses are part of the nervous system's way of signaling emotional states before conscious thought occurs. These physical sensations are linked to past experiences stored in implicit memory, shaping how we interpret current interactions. When we feel a "dropping gut" or "racing heart," our body is reacting to perceived safety or threat based on these stored patterns. This somatic feedback influences how we emotionally perceive and respond to others in relationships.
  • True safety in relationships means feeling genuinely secure, accepted, and emotionally supported, allowing vulnerability without fear. Familiarity is simply recognizing patterns or behaviors from past experiences, which can feel comfortable but may include unhealthy dynamics. People often confuse familiar but harmful patterns with safety because they are predictable and known. True safety promotes growth and healing, while mere familiarity can trap individuals in repeating past traumas.
  • Societal expectations often define masculinity as stoic, self-reliant, and emotionally restrained, discouraging men from showing vulnerability. These norms create internalized pressure to suppress feelings to avoid judgment or loss of status. Emotional expression is also linked to fears of being perceived as weak or less masculine. Therefore, simply encouraging men to "talk about it" ignores these deep-rooted cultural and psychological barriers.

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#1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

Attachment, Safety, and Vulnerability in Relationships: Psychology and Neuroscience

The discussion revolves around attachment, safety, and vulnerability in relationships, exploring how these concepts are deeply interconnected with one's psychological state and well-being.

Safety as Connection and Openness, Not Just Absence of Danger

Jessica Baum and Chris Williamson explore the idea that safety in relationships extends beyond the absence of danger, encompassing a sense of connection and the ability to remain open and present through life's challenges.

Safety Means Being Okay, Even During Difficulty, Not Just Avoiding It

Jessica Baum defines safety as not just the absence of threat but as a feeling of connection and togetherness with others. She emphasizes that safety involves feeling relaxed and open in your body. Chris Williamson shares that during an emotional retreat, safety was defined as the knowledge that one will be okay no matter what happens. Baum adds that safety also means knowing there is a network of support available even in not okay situations.

Baum discusses the process of rupture and repair in relationships, acknowledging that conflicts are natural and can lead to a deeper understanding of one's partner and greater intimacy. She notes that while such processes can involve dysregulation, they are crucial to close relationships.

Safety and Connection Are Encoded In Implicit Sensory Memories

Somatic Awareness Precedes Perceptions of Safety, Vulnerability, or Threat

Baum highlights the importance of implicit sensory memories and somatic awareness in the context of safety and connection. She points out that trauma and attachment wounds are stored in our bodies, emphasizing that connection and safety in relationships are vital and influence our well-being.

Williamson elaborates on the idea that a secure foundation in relationships can empower people to take risks elsewhere in their lives. Baum explains that secure attachment is built from individuals who have a window of tolerance and a sense of safety within their nervous ...

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Attachment, Safety, and Vulnerability in Relationships: Psychology and Neuroscience

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • "Rupture and repair" refers to the natural cycle in relationships where conflicts or misunderstandings (ruptures) occur, followed by efforts to resolve them (repairs). This process strengthens trust and intimacy by showing that the relationship can withstand difficulties. Repair involves communication, empathy, and mutual understanding to restore connection. Successful repair helps partners feel safer and more secure together.
  • Dysregulation refers to a disruption in the ability to manage or respond to emotional experiences effectively. It often involves intense emotions that feel overwhelming or out of control. In relationships, dysregulation can lead to misunderstandings or conflict because individuals struggle to stay calm or connected. It is a natural part of emotional processes that, when repaired, can strengthen intimacy.
  • Implicit sensory memories are unconscious memories formed through sensory experiences, such as touch, sound, or bodily sensations, without deliberate recall. They influence how we react emotionally and physically to situations based on past experiences stored in the body. These memories shape our sense of safety or threat by triggering automatic nervous system responses. They operate below conscious awareness but affect behavior and emotional regulation in relationships.
  • Somatic awareness is the ability to notice and interpret physical sensations in the body. It helps individuals recognize how emotions and stress manifest physically, such as tension or a racing heart. This awareness connects bodily experiences to psychological states, influencing emotional regulation and well-being. Developing somatic awareness can improve how people respond to stress and build healthier relationships.
  • The "window of tolerance" is the optimal zone of arousal where a person can function effectively and manage emotions. Within this window, the nervous system is balanced, allowing clear thinking and emotional regulation. Outside this window, a person may become hyperaroused (anxious, panicked) or hypoaroused (numb, disconnected). It is a key concept in trauma therapy to help individuals stay regulated during stress.
  • The nervous system processes bodily sensations and sends this information to the brain's right hemisphere, which specializes in emotional and nonverbal processing. This hemisphere helps interpret internal bodily states, contributing to self-awareness and emotional regulation. It plays a key role in recognizing safety or threat through bodily signals, influencing how we respond in relationships. Understanding this helps explain why physical sensations affect emotional experiences and connection.
  • Interoception is the brain's ability to sense internal bodily signals, like heartbeat, hunger, or breathing. It helps individuals become aware of their physical and emotional states by interpreting these signals. This awareness supports emotional regulation and decision-making by linking bodily sensations to feelings. In relationships, interoception aids in recognizing safety or threat through bodily cues, influencing connection and vulnerability.
  • Trauma and attachment wounds stored in the body refer ...

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#1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

The Difference Between Familiarity, Intensity, and True Intimacy/Connection

Jessica Baum and Williamson delve into the nuances of relationships, highlighting that what many interpret as intimacy might simply be the echoes of past familiarities or the misinterpretation of intense emotions.

Familiarity Is Misunderstood as Safety Despite Unhealthy Patterns

Childhood Dynamics Often Unconsciously Recreated In Adulthood

Baum clarifies that secure attachment is a felt sense of safety within the body, influencing how one moves and feels in the world. However, this sense of safety can be misunderstood, particularly when individuals are drawn to what is familiar. Baum suggests that people often attract partners that recreate the childhood dynamics they know, even if such dynamics are unhealthy. This attraction is a result of familiar patterns that the nervous system recognizes and mistakes for safety. She explains that patterns from one's past affect present-day attachments and could lead to inadvertently recreating the feeling of safety, despite worsening relational dysregulation.

Baum is sincere about how childhood experiences, notably those involving neglect, abuse, or trauma, can lead adults to similar circumstances because these environments are what one's nervous system anticipates. She asserts that although people confuse familiarity with safety, they may ironically recreate their deepest wounds in doing so. This dilemma necessitates becoming conscious of the original wounds to break trauma bonds and pursue healthier relationships.

Baum shares personal experiences to illustrate her points. She recounts leaving a relationship that echoed her childhood trauma: her partner struggled with substance abuse, mirroring her father's challenges. Baum's story reveals how early patterns can resurface in adult relationships, potentially hindering one's understanding of what constitutes a safe and healthy bond.

Chemistry Is Compelling, but Not Genuine Intimacy

"Love Bombing" and Idealization Can Mask Relational Disconnection

Williamson differentiates between intensity, often stemming from familiarity, from actual intimacy. Baum describes how individuals might ...

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The Difference Between Familiarity, Intensity, and True Intimacy/Connection

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Secure attachment is a psychological concept describing a stable and trusting emotional bond formed in early relationships, usually with caregivers. It creates a baseline feeling of safety and comfort that influences how a person responds to stress and connects with others. This "felt sense of safety" means the body and mind experience calmness and confidence in relationships, without anxiety or fear. It supports healthy emotional regulation and openness to intimacy throughout life.
  • Relational dysregulation refers to difficulties in managing emotions and behaviors within relationships, often causing instability or conflict. It can stem from early attachment wounds, leading to challenges in trust, communication, and emotional regulation with partners. This dysregulation may result in repeating unhealthy patterns or reacting intensely to relational stress. Understanding and addressing these patterns is crucial for developing healthier, more secure connections.
  • The nervous system forms neural pathways based on repeated experiences, making familiar patterns feel predictable and less threatening. This predictability triggers a calming response, often releasing neurotransmitters like dopamine or oxytocin, which signal safety. Psychologically, the brain associates these patterns with emotional regulation, even if the context is harmful. Thus, familiarity can create a false sense of security by activating these physiological and psychological responses.
  • Trauma bonds are strong emotional attachments formed between people through repeated cycles of abuse and reconciliation. These bonds create a confusing mix of fear, dependency, and affection, making it difficult to leave harmful relationships. They often develop because the intermittent kindness or attention feels like safety amid chaos. Breaking trauma bonds requires recognizing the unhealthy pattern and seeking support to heal.
  • Love bombing is a manipulation tactic where someone overwhelms another with excessive attention and affection to quickly build trust and dependency. This intense early affection triggers the brain's reward system, creating a strong emotional bond that can cloud judgment. It exploits unmet emotional needs, making the recipient overlook red flags or unhealthy behaviors. Over time, the initial idealization often fades, revealing relational issues that were previously masked.
  • Intensity in relationships refers to strong, often overwhelming emotions or rapid closeness that can feel exciting but may lack depth. True intimacy involves a gradual, mutual understanding and trust built over time, allowing vulnerability and authentic connection. Intensity can mask insecurity or unmet needs, while intimacy fosters emotional safety and genuine bonding. True intimacy endures beyond initial passion and fluctuating feelings.
  • Childhood neglect, abuse, or trauma shape the brain's attachment system, creating unconscious expectations about relationships. These early experiences form neural pathways that influence emotional responses and partner selection. Adults often seek partners who replicate familiar patterns to fulfill unmet childhood needs, even if harmful. This repetition i ...

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#1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

Importance of Co-regulation, Anchors, and Relationships In Healing Attachment Wounds

Jessica Baum and her colleagues highlight how healing from emotional wounds requires more than solo efforts; supportive relationships and co-regulation are crucial for the journey.

Healing Requires Supportive, Attuned Relationships Over Individual Self-Work

Baum underscores that a meaningful and happy life hinges on relationships, cautioning that success without connections leaves emptiness. Baum and Williamson note that individuals must work on themselves, especially in the context of secure and supportive partnerships. This self-work becomes optimally effective within romantic relationships, as partners learn and heal together.

Healing Relationship Wounds Through New Experiences

According to Baum, the nervous systems of partners are in constant communication, affecting their sense of safety and connection. She points out that couples often become emotionally triggered together, making independent regulation challenging. Baum highlights that understanding one's need for regulation and effectively communicating these needs to a partner are critical for reconnecting and re-establishing safety.

Baum also talks about the Wheel of Attachment and the transition from insecurity to security, emphasizing the critical role of attuned relationships in this process. She suggests that new, healing experiences within supportive relationships are necessary, especially given the absence of emotional availability in childhood that creates avoidance and unmet needs. By re-experiencing wounds with vulnerability and receiving what was previously missed, such as being seen and acknowledged, one can revise old narratives.

"Anchors" - Regulating Individuals - Crucial For Integrating Past Trauma

Anchors Provide the State to Process Deep Emotions

Baum stresses the need for "anchors" – emotionally present people who provide a state of safety for the nervous system to adjust and thereby facilitate healing. She shares that her own capacity to deeply connect with others is due to the profound support received from her anchors. This support allows a revisitation of past hurt through a lens of safety, enabling the nervous system to recognize new, stable, and loving relationships.

Baum believes that if one can experience true rupture and repair in a friendship, such healing can be replicated with others. She underscores the importance of these disconfirming experiences in altering belief systems and patterns by creating new, supportive memories that contradict the pain of the past.

Furthe ...

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Importance of Co-regulation, Anchors, and Relationships In Healing Attachment Wounds

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • Co-regulation is the process where one person's calm and supportive presence helps another person manage their emotional state. It involves nonverbal cues like tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language that signal safety and help soothe stress. This mutual regulation helps stabilize nervous system responses, making it easier to handle difficult emotions. Over time, co-regulation builds trust and emotional resilience within relationships.
  • In emotional healing, "anchors" are trusted individuals who provide consistent emotional stability and safety. They help regulate a person's nervous system by offering calm, supportive presence during distress. This support allows the person to process trauma without feeling overwhelmed or judged. Anchors create a secure environment that fosters trust and healing over time.
  • The Wheel of Attachment is a model that illustrates how attachment patterns cycle through behaviors and emotions in relationships. It shows how insecure attachment styles, like anxiety or avoidance, can perpetuate negative interactions and feelings. Transitioning to security involves breaking this cycle by creating new, positive relational experiences that foster trust and safety. This process helps individuals develop healthier attachment responses over time.
  • The "ventral state of safety" refers to a calm, regulated state of the nervous system governed by the ventral vagal complex, part of the parasympathetic nervous system. In this state, individuals feel safe, socially connected, and able to engage in healthy relationships. Stephen Porges' Polyvagal Theory explains that this state supports emotional regulation and healing by enabling trust and co-regulation. Without this state, the nervous system may default to fight, flight, or freeze responses, hindering recovery from trauma.
  • "Rupture and repair" refers to moments when a relationship experiences conflict or misunderstanding (rupture) followed by efforts to resolve and restore trust (repair). This process strengthens bonds by showing that relationships can survive difficulties and still provide safety. Repair involves honest communication, empathy, and mutual effort to understand and heal the hurt. Repeated successful repairs build resilience and deepen emotional connection.
  • "Space holding" in therapy means creating a safe, non-judgmental environment where a person feels emotionally supported. It involves active listening, empathy, and patience, allowing the individual to express feelings freely. The holder maintains calm presence, helping regulate the person's nervous system. This supportive "container" enables healing by fostering trust and emotional safety.
  • Partners' nervous systems communicate through subtle cues like fac ...

Counterarguments

  • While supportive relationships are important, some individuals may find significant healing through solo practices like meditation, journaling, or individual therapy, which can also be effective in managing emotional wounds.
  • The emphasis on romantic relationships for healing may overlook the value of other types of relationships, such as friendships, family bonds, or community connections, which can also offer significant support and co-regulation.
  • The idea that success without connections leads to emptiness may not resonate with everyone; some individuals may find fulfillment in solitude or in pursuits that do not primarily focus on interpersonal relationships.
  • The concept of "anchors" might be seen as potentially creating a dependency on others for emotional regulation, which could be counterproductive for some individuals striving for self-sufficiency and personal resilience.
  • The focus on attuned relationships for healing may not address the complexities of relationships where attunement is not possible, such as with individuals who have personality disorders or other mental health issues that affect their ability to connect.
  • The notion that self-help books are insufficient might be challenged by the fact that many individuals have experienced profound insights and growth through self-education and self-help resources.
  • The text may not fully acknowledge the role of individual differences in the healing process, such as varying levels of resilience, coping styles, and the unique psychological makeup of individuals.
  • The idea that couples often become emotionally triggered together and struggle with in ...

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#1020 - Jessica Baum - Why We Fall for the Wrong People

Challenges Men Face Accessing and Expressing Emotions

The article discusses how societal and cultural expectations contribute to the difficulties men have with accessing and expressing their emotions, and how this can lead to a lack of vulnerability and an overemphasis on independence.

Men Are Taught to Hide Vulnerability and Emotions

Men Struggle With Vulnerability Needed For Healing

There is significant pressure on men to achieve success which can lead to isolation, as illustrated by the example of men who reach prestigious goals like the Olympics but still find themselves struggling with vulnerability. This struggle is often related to their difficulty in feeling seen and deeply connected, which is essential for healing. In order to address their struggles with showing emotional needs or insecurity, men might need to learn to live "below the neck" and engage with their emotions.

Jessica Baum discusses that men often exhibit people-pleasing behavior by avoiding conflict and suppressing their true feelings to maintain harmony. This behavior aligns with men being taught that conflict is not okay, which further discourages them from expressing vulnerability. Chris Williams talks about the challenges men face when trying to revisit past events that are shameful, challenging, or difficult for the sake of healing, especially in relationships. Baum acknowledges that it's hard for men to be vulnerable because it feels dangerous in a society that does not generally support male vulnerability.

Baum further notes that being vulnerable can be terrifying since it is a step that often leads to positive change and freedom which, given cultural and intergenerational norms, is particularly tough for many men. Williamson highlights the concern men have about being perceived as weak when exhibiting vulnerability, which can be a barrier to healing.

Masculine "Independence" and Self-Sufficiency Hinder Relational Work

The trait of "independence" is portrayed as protective, ensuring that safety comes from within, not reliant on others. Society often rewards independence, viewing it as a sign of agency and capability. Baum and Williamson address an "independence disconnection energy," which implies that societal expectations around self-sufficiency and hard work can lead to disconnection from emotions and others. Baum underlines the cultural push for independence, which can lead both men and women, but especially men, to live in survival mode and not connect deeply with others.

Williamson emphasizes the fear that men have o ...

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Challenges Men Face Accessing and Expressing Emotions

Additional Materials

Actionables

  • Start a personal "Emotion Journal" where you document your feelings daily, focusing on moments when you felt the urge to hide your emotions. This practice encourages self-awareness and helps you identify patterns in your emotional responses. For example, if you felt the need to suppress disappointment during a work meeting, write it down, explore why, and consider how acknowledging that emotion could have been beneficial.
  • Create a "Vulnerability Pact" with a close friend or family member where you both agree to share something vulnerable about yourselves each week. This could be fears, insecurities, or past experiences that you usually wouldn't talk about. This mutual exchange can foster a safe space for emotional expression and deepen your connections.
  • Engage in ...

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