#1019 - Finn Taylor & Horatio Gould - History is a Freakshow
In this episode of Modern Wisdom, Finn Taylor and Horatio Gould examine two historical events: the 1518 Dancing Plague, where hundreds of people danced uncontrollably in the streets of Strasbourg, and the development of scientific racism, including Francis Galton's theories and their misuse to justify colonialism and other atrocities.
The hosts also explore how irony and sarcasm in online communication affect genuine discourse, and they discuss the societal implications of modern biotech capabilities. Their conversation covers the potential effects of embryo selection and gene editing on parenthood, including questions about how genetic customization might change the nature of parental relationships.
This is a preview of the Shortform summary of the Nov 13, 2025 episode of the Modern Wisdom
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Historical Case Studies and Curiosities
In a fascinating exploration of historical oddities, hosts Fin Taylor and Horatio Gould examine two distinct phenomena: the 1518 Dancing Plague and the dark history of scientific racism.
The Dancing Plague of 1518 in Strasbourg began with a single person dancing uncontrollably in the street, eventually spreading to 400 people. Some dancers reportedly died from exhaustion, stroke, or heart attack. While the exact cause remains unknown, theories range from mass hysteria triggered by stress and famine to ergot poisoning from contaminated grain.
The hosts then delve into the troubling history of scientific racism and eugenics. They discuss how Francis Galton's theories provided pseudo-scientific justification for colonialism, slavery, and eventually Nazi atrocities. While Charles Darwin's evolutionary theories were misappropriated to support racial hierarchies, the hosts note that Darwin himself didn't endorse such views.
Sincerity, Irony, and Earnestness in Academia
The discussion shifts to examining how online communication, particularly the prevalence of irony and sarcasm, affects genuine discourse. Horatio Gould points out how extreme ideas can gain traction through ironic detachment, while Chris Williamson argues that this environment makes it difficult to distinguish between authentic and performative communication.
The hosts explore how humor can be used effectively to humanize complex topics without diminishing their importance. Taylor suggests that incorporating humor helps make serious subjects more accessible and relatable to audiences.
Ethical and Societal Implications of Emerging Biotech Capabilities
The conversation concludes with an examination of modern biotech capabilities, particularly regarding embryo selection and gene editing. While these technologies offer potential benefits like preventing genetic disorders, the hosts raise concerns about their ethical implications.
Taylor, speaking from his experience as a parent, argues that the ability to "design" children could fundamentally alter the nature of parenthood. Gould adds that genetic customization might diminish the unconditional aspect of parental love, transforming it into a product of conscious choices rather than natural acceptance.
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Actionables
- You can explore the impact of collective behavior by participating in a flash mob, which is a group of people who assemble suddenly in a public place, perform an unusual act for a brief time, then quickly disperse. This experience can give you a firsthand understanding of how individual actions can contribute to a larger group dynamic, similar to historical events like the Dancing Plague. By reflecting on your feelings before, during, and after the event, you can gain insights into the psychological aspects of mass activities.
- To navigate the complexities of online communication, practice identifying the tone in text messages or social media posts by guessing the sender's intent and then confirming with them. This exercise can sharpen your perception of digital cues and help you become more adept at distinguishing between serious and sarcastic remarks. By doing this regularly, you'll develop a better sense for the subtleties of online discourse, which can prevent misunderstandings and help maintain the authenticity of your interactions.
- Engage with the ethical dimensions of emerging biotechnologies by starting a book club focused on science fiction that explores themes of genetic engineering, such as "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley or "Oryx and Crake" by Margaret Atwood. Through discussions about the scenarios presented in these novels, you can deepen your understanding of the potential societal implications of biotech advancements and the moral dilemmas they may pose, fostering a more informed perspective on the topic.
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Historical Case Studies and Curiosities
Hosts Fin Taylor and Horatio Gould delve into peculiar events of history such as the 1518 "Dancing Plague" and the darker aspects of 19th and early 20th-century scientific racism.
The 1518 "Dancing Plague" in Strasbourg Saw Hundreds Dance Uncontrollably For Weeks, With Some Dying From Exhaustion, Stroke, or Heart Attack
A mysterious incident began when someone stepped into the street in Strasbourg and began dancing uncontrollably. Within a week, dozens joined, and within a month, the number swelled to 400. Many danced for days without rest, and some reportedly succumbed to exhaustion, stroke, or heart attack. Authorities at the time were baffled. Doctors discounted supernatural causes and chalked it up to "hot blood," even commissioning musicians and erecting a stage to encourage dancers to dance it out, which only exacerbated the problem.
Dancing Plague Cause Remains a Mystery; Theories Include Mass Hysteria and Ergot Poisoning
The cause of the Dancing Plague is still a subject of speculation. The theories include mass hysteria, induced by stress and famine, and ergot poisoning—a condition that arises from consuming moldy grain, historically linked to witch trials and crazes.
Darker Aspects of 19th and Early 20th-Century Scientific Racism and Eugenics, Including Pseudoscientific Theories Like Phrenology and Forced Sterilization of "Undesirable" Populations
Taylor and Gould shift their focus to the birth of eugenics and the scientific racism that masqueraded as scholarly research. They discuss a time when esteemed 19th-century scientists, deep in their prejudiced views, contributed to racist ideologies.
Figures Like Galton Used Ideas to Justify Colonialism, Slavery, and Nazi Atrocities; Darwin Did Not Endorse Such Views
The hosts dig into Francis Galton’s impact, noting that Galton, a multi-faceted scientist, significantly contributed to the field of eugenics. He employed coded language, a precursor to the political dog whistle, to advance his views. These eugenic ideals not only spurred policies like forced sterilization of vulnerable populations in America and later Nazi Germany but also stood behind the justification of colonialism, slavery, an ...
Here’s what you’ll find in our full summary
Historical Case Studies and Curiosities
Additional Materials
Actionables
- Explore historical mysteries by starting a book club focused on unsolved events and their social impacts, like the Dancing Plague, to foster critical thinking and awareness of historical interpretations. By reading and discussing books on such topics, you'll gain a deeper understanding of how societies have dealt with inexplicable phenomena and the long-term effects of these events on culture and science.
- Educate yourself on the history of science by creating a timeline that tracks the evolution of scientific theories and their societal implications, including the rise and fall of scientific racism. This visual aid can help you grasp the progression of scientific thought and its misuse, enabling you to recognize the importance of ethical considerations in scientific inquiry.
- Counteract outdated scientific beliefs ...
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Sincerity, Irony, and Earnestness in Academia
Horatio Gould, Fin Taylor, and Chris Williamson discuss the complications that arise from the prevalence of irony and sarcasm online, particularly as they relate to academia and the spread of ideas.
Podcast Hosts Discuss Irony and Sarcasm As Norms Online, Hindering Genuine Engagement and Blurring Sincerity
The podcast hosts address how common online behavior, steeped in irony, impacts the perception of sincerity and authenticity, and how this can enable dangerous ideas to be shared more readily.
Hosts Argue This Allows Fringe or Dangerous Ideas to Gain Traction Through Ironic Detachment, Hindering Meaningful Discussions
Horatio Gould brings to attention the existence of pro-Hitler memes and content online, signaling a community that interacts with such ideas under the veil of irony. He points out that due to a lifetime spent online, many can no longer distinguish between irony and sincerity, leading to blurred lines.
Taylor and Williamson discuss how this pervasive online irony prevents genuine interaction with reality and how people no longer seem to care about the distinction between what's authentic and what's fabricated. Williamson notes that this prevents people from honestly engaging with the thoughts and feelings of others. Taylor acknowledges a personal distinction between his comedic online behavior and his real-life attitudes, suggesting a conscious separation between online irony and genuine personal beliefs.
The hosts also touch upon how online interactions, heavily ironic, make many things seem less meaningful. They highlight the issue of performative sincerity, where individuals project sincerity without authenticity. They argue that sarcasm and irony online make it difficult for people to know when others are genuine, negatively affecting meaningful discourse.
Taylor draws a parallel between watching an Andrew Tate podcast and experiencing a "GTA cutscene," where the participants' sincerity is questionable. He's concerned that either their followers are complicit in this inauthenticity, or they fail to recognize it as performance, indicating the danger that irony poses when differentiating reality from performance.
Williamson argues that the overuse of irony, especially in contentious online settings like Twitter disputes, encourages insincere and detached interactions, potentially allowing extreme or harmful ideas to spread without proper scrutiny.
As they delve into case studies, the hosts point out figure ...
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Sincerity, Irony, and Earnestness in Academia
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Clarifications
- Irony online often means saying the opposite of what one truly means, usually to mock or highlight absurdity. Sarcasm is a sharper form of irony, intended to ridicule or convey contempt. Both can mask true feelings, making it hard to tell when someone is genuine. Sincerity involves honest, straightforward expression without hidden meanings or mockery.
- Performative sincerity refers to expressing emotions or beliefs publicly in a way that is meant to be seen and judged by others, rather than stemming from genuine feeling. It often involves acting sincere to gain social approval or influence, without true authenticity behind the expression. This can create confusion about what is real, undermining trust and meaningful communication. In online contexts, it blurs the line between honest engagement and strategic performance.
- "Pro-Hitler memes" are often used ironically online to shock or provoke reactions rather than express genuine support. This ironic use can blur the line between endorsement and satire, making it hard to discern true beliefs. Such memes can inadvertently normalize or spread extremist ideas by masking them in humor. This complicates efforts to challenge harmful ideologies effectively.
- Andrew Tate is a controversial internet personality known for provocative and performative content. A "GTA cutscene" refers to scripted, often exaggerated story segments in the video game Grand Theft Auto, known for their over-the-top and sometimes insincere tone. Comparing an Andrew Tate podcast to a GTA cutscene suggests the podcast feels staged or performative rather than genuine. This highlights concerns about distinguishing authentic beliefs from performance in online content.
- Charlie Kirk is a conservative political activist and founder of Turning Point USA, a group known for promoting right-wing ideas on college campuses. He often blends serious political messaging with provocative or performative rhetoric. This style can blur the line between genuine belief and strategic performance, complicating public discourse. His presence in discussions highlights how irony and sincerity intersect in modern political communication.
- "Ironic detachment" refers to expressing ideas with a layer of irony or sarcasm that masks true intent, making it unclear whether the speaker genuinely supports those ideas. This ambiguity allows fringe or dangerous views to be shared without direct accountability, as people can claim they were "just joking" or being ironic. It lowers the barrier for spreading harmful content because audiences may not critically engage or challenge the ideas, assuming they are not serious. Consequently, this detachment blurs the line between endorsement and satire, enabling problematic beliefs to gain traction unnoticed.
- Online irony often involves saying things that are intentionally insincere or exaggerated to provoke humor or critique. This frequent use of irony blurs the line between genuine beliefs and sarcastic statements, making it hard to tell when someone truly means what they say. As a result, people may struggle to identify misinformation or harmful ideas disguised as jokes or satire. This confusion can undermine trust a ...
Counterarguments
- Irony and sarcasm can be effective tools for critical thinking, allowing individuals to question ideas and norms in a way that straightforward language sometimes cannot.
- The use of irony and sarcasm online can also serve as a coping mechanism or a form of resistance against dominant narratives and power structures.
- Some communities and individuals are adept at navigating between sincerity and irony, and the issue may lie more with the interpretation by outsiders than with the communicators themselves.
- The spread of fringe or dangerous ideas is not solely due to the use of irony; there are many complex factors at play, including political, social, and psychological influences.
- The assumption that online behavior is predominantly ironic or sarcastic may overlook the vast amounts of sincere engagement and support that occur in online communities.
- Performative sincerity is not a new phenomenon brought on by the internet; inauthenticity has been a part of human interaction long before the digital age.
- The effectiveness of humor in communication can vary greatly depending on the audience's cultural background, personal preferences, and the context of the discussion.
- While humor can make complex topics more ...
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Ethical and Societal Implications of Emerging Biotech Capabilities
Horatio Gould, Chris Williamson, and Fin Taylor discuss the powerful technologies in biotech that enable parents to select and edit genes in embryos, raising urgent ethical concerns.
The Hosts Discuss the Implications of Technologies Like Embryo Selection and Gene Editing, Enabling Parents to "Design" Children
Ethical Concerns in Genetic Modification: Preventing Disorders vs. Cosmetic Trait Selection
The conversation explores the future possibilities of selecting and editing genes in embryos, sparking an ethical debate over the fine line between preventing severe disorders and choosing cosmetic traits. Williamson and Taylor explain that while embryo selection is legal in the US, editing embryos is not. They weigh the potential benefits, like selecting against specific gene mutations such as the BRCA gene, which can increase susceptibility to certain cancers, against the ethical implications of creating what could be considered "designer babies."
Gould and Taylor delve into the notion that editing out suffering through gene therapy might lead parents down a slippery slope of expectations, prompting them to select traits as one might select features on a car. This trivialization of genetic modification could escalate from preventing serious health issues to designing a child's physical attributes, prompting a discussion on where to draw the line ethically.
Hosts Argue That Engineering "Perfect" Children Could Alter the Nature of Parenthood By Diminishing Acceptance of Given Children
Risk to Unconditional Love in Parent-Child Relationship
Taylor, the only parent among the hosts, discusses the intrinsic nature of parenthood, emphasizing the importance of accepting the child you're given rather than customizing their traits. He suggests that part of the parental experience involves facing the child's challenges, not selecting for desired qualities, revealing a potential shift in the nature of parenthood should genetic customization become widespread.
Furthermore, Gould raises concerns that ch ...
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Ethical and Societal Implications of Emerging Biotech Capabilities
Additional Materials
Clarifications
- Embryo selection involves choosing embryos with desired genetic traits from those created via in vitro fertilization, without altering their DNA. Embryo gene editing directly changes the DNA within an embryo to add, remove, or modify specific genes. Selection is a choice among natural genetic variations, while editing actively alters the genetic code. Gene editing techniques include CRISPR, which allows precise changes at targeted DNA locations.
- Embryo selection involves choosing embryos with desired genetic traits from those created via in vitro fertilization, without altering their DNA. Gene editing directly changes the DNA within an embryo to add, remove, or modify specific genes. In the US, embryo selection is permitted under current regulations, while gene editing of embryos is largely prohibited due to ethical and safety concerns. Regulatory agencies like the FDA oversee these practices, and gene editing in embryos for reproduction is not approved.
- The BRCA genes (BRCA1 and BRCA2) produce proteins that help repair damaged DNA, maintaining genetic stability. Mutations in these genes can impair DNA repair, increasing the risk of breast, ovarian, and other cancers. People with harmful BRCA mutations have a significantly higher lifetime risk of developing these cancers compared to the general population. Genetic testing for BRCA mutations can guide preventive measures and treatment decisions.
- The ethical debate about "designer babies" centers on whether gene editing should be limited to preventing serious diseases or extended to selecting non-essential traits like eye color or intelligence. Cosmetic traits are those chosen for appearance or preference, not health, raising concerns about fairness and social pressure. Medical necessity involves altering genes to avoid life-threatening or debilitating conditions. Critics worry that choosing cosmetic traits could lead to inequality and reduce acceptance of natural human diversity.
- A "slippery slope" refers to a situation where a small, acceptable action leads to a chain of related events with increasingly negative or controversial outcomes. In genetic modification, it means starting with editing genes to prevent diseases might gradually lead to selecting non-medical traits like appearance or intelligence. This progression is feared because it could be hard to control or stop once begun. The term warns of unintended consequences from seemingly harmless beginnings.
- "Choice paralysis" occurs when having too many options makes decision-making difficult and stressful. In genetic selection, parents might struggle to choose traits because each option carries potential benefits and risks. This overload can lead to anxiety, indecision, or regret after making a choice. The pressure to select the "perfect" traits can undermine confidence and satisfaction with the decision.
- Unconditional parental love means loving a child without conditions or expectations. Traditionall ...
Counterarguments
- The potential to prevent severe genetic disorders through gene editing could significantly improve individual quality of life and reduce healthcare costs.
- The distinction between cosmetic and therapeutic genetic modifications is not always clear-cut, as some traits might have both aesthetic and health-related implications.
- The concept of "designer babies" may be an oversimplification, as parents already make numerous decisions that affect their children's lives, such as education and nutrition.
- The evolution of parental roles and expectations is a natural part of societal progress, and genetic modification could be seen as an extension of this evolution.
- Unconditional love in parent-child relationships can be complex and is not solely determined by the circumstances of a child's conception or birth.
- The ability to choose traits does not necessarily lead to diminished love or acceptance; it could also lead to more thoughtful and responsible parenting.
- Concerns about "choice paralysis" may be mitigated through proper counseling and support systems for parents considering genetic m ...
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