In this episode of Making Sense with Sam Harris, Harris and behavioral geneticist Kathryn Paige Harden revisit the 2017 controversy surrounding Harris's interview with Charles Murray. They discuss how critiques of platforming controversial figures evolved into character attacks, and reflect on whether aggressive policing of scientific speech has effectively countered extremism. Both acknowledge how the broader context has shifted since 2017.
The conversation then turns to behavioral genetics itself—the study of how genes and environment interact to influence behavior and life outcomes. Harris and Harden address why the field remains controversial, clarifying concepts like heritability and challenging common misconceptions about genetic determinism. They explore the genetics of morally significant traits like impulse control and discuss how advances in reproductive technology are raising new questions about genetic selection and eugenics in a politically fractured landscape.

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Sam Harris reflects on the 2017 backlash after hosting Charles Murray on his podcast. Harris emphasizes his intention was to address issues around free speech and intellectual tolerance, not to endorse Murray's race and IQ claims. However, he recounts how critics, including Ezra Klein in Vox, blurred the distinction between disagreeing with Murray's science and Harris's decision to platform him. Harris was labeled a racist and placed on watchlists, despite his focus being on defending free speech principles rather than supporting Murray's views.
Kathryn Paige Harden revisited the Vox piece she co-authored and realized it crossed from scientific critique into normative judgments about media ethics and platforming. Having herself been attacked as a "handmaiden to the alt-right," Harden now has greater empathy for Harris, recognizing how easily scientific criticism can become character attacks. She acknowledges she should have stuck to critiques of the science rather than venturing into questions of who should be allowed a platform.
Both Harris and Harden observe that the broader context has shifted significantly since 2017. Harden notes that attempts to restrict controversial figures haven't stemmed far-right extremism or conspiracy movements, calling that belief naïve in retrospect. Harris argues that intolerance around scientific speech contributed to the backlash that fueled polarization. Both agree that aggressive policing of scientific discourse hasn't proven effective in mitigating extremism and may have contributed to other forms of backlash.
Kathryn Paige Harden describes behavioral genetics as analyzing the interaction between nature and nurture to explain behavioral tendencies and life outcomes. The field studies how genes influence traits like personality, school performance, and mental illness. Harden points out that most parents of multiple children observe these genetic differences firsthand, seeing how siblings raised in the same environment differ significantly in temperament. Research supports the intuitive observation that children resemble their parents both physically and behaviorally.
Despite broad acceptance of gene-environment interplay, the field remains controversial. Harden and Harris discuss the historical baggage, particularly U.S. eugenics policies that justified forced sterilizations using claims about heritability. The field is especially vulnerable because far-right movements exploit claims about innate racial differences, making science linking genes to behavior susceptible to misappropriation by extremists. Certain topics like IQ differences become supercharged with moral concerns and accusations of dangerous ideas.
Harden points out a deeper philosophical discomfort at the core of behavioral genetics. Humans experience themselves as agents who direct their own development, but behavioral genetics highlights the influence of inherited biology. By objectifying aspects of experience traditionally felt to be the essence of personal agency, the field evokes existential unease and challenges assumptions about human freedom and moral responsibility.
Sam Harris emphasizes the importance of clarifying heritability, noting that confusion about these concepts contaminates debates. Heritability quantifies the proportion of variation in a trait that can be attributed to genetic differences within a given population and environment—it's not a claim that genes predetermine individual outcomes.
Heritability estimates are specific to particular environments and timeframes. High heritability doesn't mean a trait is immune to environmental influence or "set in stone" by genetics. This distinction is frequently misunderstood, with people mistakenly equating heritability with genetic inevitability. Clarifying this is crucial to prevent scientific findings from being misinterpreted as fatalism or arguments against beneficial interventions.
The conventional framing of "nature vs. nurture" is misleading because it treats genes and environment as separate influences rather than recognizing their constant interaction. Gene expression depends on environmental context, and environmental effects are filtered through genetic predispositions. Genetic influence creates a range of potential outcomes, but where an individual falls within that range is strongly influenced by environmental conditions.
Sam Harris highlights that behavioral genetics investigates traits like violence, impulse control, and antisocial behavior—traits that profoundly affect outcomes like incarceration, addiction, homelessness, and societal success. These traits are morally significant because they're closely linked to life trajectories. The study of these traits challenges traditional understandings of moral responsibility by revealing genetic influence over morally weighted behaviors. If some people are genetically less able to control their impulses, then moral blame and accountability must reflect this biological difference while still upholding the need for social order.
Advances in reproductive technology now allow for embryo screening for specific genetic traits, enabling unprecedented reproductive choices and raising concerns about the return of eugenic practices.
Kathryn Paige Harden highlights that while technological capabilities advance, the U.S. political landscape grows more fractured. Recent actions like Alabama's attempted IVF ban and Texas's abortion ban have created a country splintering into "moral communities" with divergent positions on reproductive rights. Unlike several other countries, the U.S. lacks unified national policies regulating reproductive technologies, leaving decisions about embryo screening mostly up to market forces and individual consumers rather than societal consensus.
1-Page Summary
Sam Harris reflects on the backlash he faced in 2017 after hosting Charles Murray on his podcast. Harris emphasizes that his intention was not to delve into or support Murray's race and IQ claims, but rather to address the escalating issues around intellectual tolerance, free speech, and moral panic. He notes that Murray had become a lightning rod for controversy, even experiencing physical assault on a college campus decades after his book’s release, illustrating the fraught environment around the topic. Harris wanted to conduct a post-mortem on the state of free speech and tolerance, not to support Murray's scientific arguments.
However, Harris recounts that much of the criticism blurred the distinction between disagreeing with the scientific merit of Murray’s ideas and Harris’s decision to give him a platform. He was labeled a racialist, pseudo-scientist, and a dupe of Charles Murray. Ezra Klein’s response in Vox and subsequent op-eds further amplified these accusations. Harris describes how this criticism led to his being labeled a racist and placed on watchlists like the Southern Poverty Law Center’s, despite his intentions being rooted in a defense of free speech, not an endorsement of Murray’s views. Harris expresses lingering anger and frustration at how these intentions were misunderstood, especially by Klein, who, according to Harris, failed to acknowledge his own role in fostering moral panic over free speech issues.
Kathryn Paige Harden revisited the Vox piece she co-authored with Eric Turkheimer and Richard Nisbet, as well as the sequela of replies and responses it generated. Initially, she remembered their article as mainly focused on scientific disagreements with Murray. Upon rereading, she realized that a significant portion was not just about scientific objections but was also a normative critique of Harris's decision to platform Murray at all. Harden acknowledges now that she unintentionally crossed the line from her domain expertise into broader issues of media responsibility and ethical platforming during a fraught cultural period.
Harden reflects that, at the time, she had little intention of wading into contested debates over wokeness, free speech, and media ethics, but her writing did so anyway, partly due to the climate and the unprecedented nature of communicating science in popular media. In hindsight, she feels she should have stuck to critiques of the science surrounding genetics and IQ, rather than venturing into questions of media ethics or who should be allowed a platform.
Having herself been attacked as a “handmaiden to the alt-right” or “Charles Murray in a skirt,” Harden admits she has greater empathy for Harris, recognizing how easily scientific criticism can be weaponized and turn into full-fledged character attacks. She never intended for disagreement over Murray’s science to morph into disparagement of Harris's integrity or work overall, and she acknowledges the discomfort and harm this caused.
The 2017 Controversy: Retrospective Analysis and Lessons Learned
Behavioral genetics examines how the genes we inherit combine with other factors to influence our behavior. Kathryn Paige Harden describes the field as one that analyzes the interaction between nature and nurture to explain behavioral tendencies and life outcomes. She notes that, while behavioral genetics is often seen as a scientific specialty, its concepts have permeated common understanding and language around behavior.
Harden explains that most people recognize children are born different in ways that matter for how they turn out. There is a broad lay understanding that genes influence not just obvious traits like height and blood type, but also personality, school performance, likelihood of developing mental illness, or depression. Parents of multiple children most acutely notice these differences, seeing firsthand how even siblings raised in the same environment can differ significantly in temperament and tendencies.
She points out that behavioral genetics merely formalizes what many parents observe: children are not blank slates, and genetic inheritance clearly impacts development. Children often resemble their parents in specific ways, underscoring that inheritance plays a significant role in shaping life outcomes.
The scientific consensus emerging from behavioral genetics research is that while environmental influences exist, genetic factors also play a notable—if not deterministic—role in shaping who we become. This research supports the intuitive observation that offspring tend to resemble their parents, both physically and behaviorally.
Despite foundational findings and broad acceptance of gene-environment interplay, behavioral genetics remains steeped in controversy, both due to its historical associations and its perceived implications.
Harden and Sam Harris discuss behavioral genetics’ historical baggage, particularly in the United States, where eugenics policies—including forced sterilizations—were justified using claims about the heritability of behavioral and intellectual traits. This legacy fuels suspicion towards claims that genes play a role in making people who they are.
The field is especially controversial because, as Harden observes, the ascendant far right appeals to the idea of innate biological or racialized differences. Science that explores links between inheritance and behavior is susceptible to misappropriation by extremists intent on justifying discriminatory ideologies or policy.
Certain topics—such as IQ and racial differences in IQ—are so polarizing that scientific discussion becomes supercharged with moral concerns, accusations of dangerous or irresponsible ideas, and a presumption of bad motives among researchers. The risks of political misuse have led some to minimize or obscure the influence of genetics, reinforcing the belief that social intervention alone can overcom ...
Behavioral Genetics: Definition, Understanding, and Enduring Controversy
Sam Harris emphasizes the importance of clarifying the concept of heritability and understanding the relationship—or the lack of a strict divide—between nature and nurture. He notes that confusion and misinterpretation about these concepts are common and that such misunderstandings often contaminate debates, including contentious topics like intelligence differences.
Heritability is often misunderstood as a measure indicating that genes rigidly determine a trait. In reality, heritability quantifies the proportion of variation in a trait, within a given population and environment, that can be attributed to genetic differences. It is not a claim that genes predetermine individual outcomes.
Heritability estimates are specific to particular environments and timeframes. What might be highly heritable in one context can become much less so in another if environmental factors change. Therefore, high heritability does not mean a trait is immune to environmental influence or that it is “set in stone” by genetics.
This distinction is frequently misunderstood. Many people mistakenly equate the scientific measure of heritability with the idea that genes alone inevitably dictate outcomes. This leads to a false sense of genetic determination, rather than recognizing the actual interplay between genes and context.
Clarifying the true meaning of heritability is crucial to prevent scientific findings from being misinterpreted as fatalism or as arguments against efforts to make beneficial interventions. Even when something is highly heritable, interventions or environmental changes can produce significant effects on outcomes.
The conventional framing of “nature vs. nurture” is also misleading. Treating ...
Nature-Nurture: Clarifying Heritability and Reconciling Science With Agency
Sam Harris highlights that behavioral genetics investigates key traits such as violence, impulse control, and antisocial behavior—traits that profoundly affect outcomes like incarceration, addiction, homelessness, and societal success. These traits are morally significant because they are closely linked to life trajectories: some people, due in part to their genetic dispositions, end up incarcerated, addicted, or homeless, while others rise to leadership positions, run major institutions, or lead what Harris calls "beautiful lives." The study of these traits challenges traditional understandings of moral responsibility and blame by revealing a genetic influence over morally weighted behaviors. The genetic contributions to such behaviors inevitably affect social policies and notions of justice. The varied distribution of these traits in the population helps explain disparities in leadership, success, incarceration, and poverty.
With scientific insight showing genetic variation in impulse control, aggression, and harmful impulses, the traditional moral model—based on the presumption of free, ...
Genetics of Morally Significant Behavioral Traits
Advances in reproductive technology now allow for the screening of embryos for specific genetic traits, enabling unprecedented reproductive choices. These technologies not only make genetic selection a possibility but also create pressure to use genetic information in deciding which embryos to implant, raising concerns about the return of eugenic practices despite ongoing societal debate.
Kathryn Paige Harden highlights that while technological capabilities in reproduction advance, the U.S. political landscape grows more fractured. Recent actions, such as Alabama’s attempt to ban IVF and Texas’s effective ban on legal abortion, have not been addressed at a national policy level. Instead, the country is splintering into "moral communities," where distinct groups form around divergent positions on reproductive rights, abortion, and religious opposition to reproductive technologies like IVF.
Unlike several other countries, the U.S. lacks unified national policies regulating reproductive technologies and genetic selection. This absence leaves decisions about embryo screening and implementation mostly up to mark ...
Reproductive Technology and Genetic Selection
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