Podcasts > Jocko Podcast > Jocko Underground: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work.

Jocko Underground: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work.

By Jocko DEFCOR Network

In this episode of Jocko Podcast, Jocko Willink and Echo Charles explore when standard leadership principles like "Cover and Move" and "Extreme Ownership" may not serve a team's best interests. They examine how these principles, while foundational to effective leadership, can become counterproductive when applied without proper balance, particularly when dealing with problematic team members.

The discussion delves into strategies for managing difficult employees, including both high performers who create toxic environments and consistently underperforming team members. Willink and Charles outline a structured approach to addressing these challenges, from initial conversations to progressive discipline, while emphasizing the importance of documentation and allowing natural consequences to unfold when necessary.

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Jocko Underground: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work.

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Jocko Underground: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work.

1-Page Summary

Leadership Principles

Leadership principles like 'Cover and Move' and 'Extreme Ownership' provide essential frameworks for team management, but their effectiveness depends heavily on balanced application. While these principles are powerful tools, their overzealous application can lead to decreased effectiveness and team dysfunction.

Managing Problem Employees and Toxic Behavior

Leaders must recognize when covering for underperforming or toxic team members becomes detrimental to the team's mission. This includes knowing when to stop protecting individuals whose behavior is unethical or harmful. Jocko Willink suggests that effective leadership requires tailoring approaches to specific situations and personalities, sometimes requiring the isolation of high-performers whose behavior negatively impacts team dynamics.

The Importance of Progressive Discipline

Willink and Echo Charles discuss a structured approach to handling problematic behavior. They recommend starting with open-ended questions to promote self-reflection, then gradually increasing directness if the behavior persists. Documentation becomes crucial when improvement plans and warnings are necessary. Charles notes that sometimes, after extensive coaching, leaders must allow employees to face the natural consequences of their actions. This clarity about consequences often spurs self-correction in problematic team members.

The discussion emphasizes the delicate balance leaders must strike between managing individual performance and maintaining team cohesion. When dealing with high-performing but problematic employees, Willink suggests isolation strategies that allow the team to benefit from their contributions while minimizing their negative influence on team dynamics.

1-Page Summary

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • 'Cover and Move' means team members support each other by covering each other's tasks to achieve a common goal. 'Extreme Ownership' requires leaders to take full responsibility for their team's outcomes, including failures. Both principles originate from military leadership concepts used by Jocko Willink. Applying them means fostering accountability and teamwork to improve performance.
  • "Covering" means protecting or compensating for a team member's mistakes or poor performance to prevent negative impacts on the team. Leaders might do this to maintain team stability or avoid conflict temporarily. However, excessive covering can enable bad behavior and harm overall team effectiveness. Recognizing when to stop covering is crucial for accountability and long-term success.
  • "Isolating" high-performing but problematic employees means limiting their direct interaction with the rest of the team to reduce negative influence. This can involve assigning them to separate projects or roles where their skills are utilized but their behavior causes less disruption. The goal is to preserve team morale and cohesion while still benefiting from the employee's contributions. It is a strategic balance between leveraging talent and protecting the team environment.
  • Jocko Willink is a retired Navy SEAL officer, leadership consultant, and author known for his books on leadership and discipline. Echo Charles is a leadership coach and author who collaborates with Willink on leadership and management topics. Both focus on practical strategies for improving team performance and handling difficult personnel issues. Their work combines military leadership principles with business management practices.
  • A "structured approach" to handling problematic behavior involves a clear, step-by-step process for addressing issues. It typically starts with informal conversations to understand the problem and encourage self-awareness. If behavior doesn't improve, the leader issues formal warnings and sets specific expectations. Documentation of all steps ensures accountability and supports potential disciplinary actions.
  • Documentation in managing employee behavior involves recording specific incidents, conversations, and actions related to the employee's performance or conduct. It provides a factual basis for discussions, helps track progress or recurring issues, and supports fair decision-making. Proper documentation protects both the leader and organization legally if disciplinary actions or termination become necessary. It also ensures transparency and consistency in how employee issues are handled.
  • "Natural consequences" refer to the direct results that occur from an employee's actions without intervention from management. For example, if an employee consistently misses deadlines, the natural consequence might be loss of trust or missed opportunities. This approach allows employees to experience the real impact of their behavior, encouraging self-awareness and motivation to change. It contrasts with imposed punishments, focusing instead on real-world outcomes.
  • Clarity about consequences means employees fully understand the specific outcomes of their actions, both positive and negative. This understanding removes uncertainty, making the impact of their behavior tangible and immediate. When employees see clear links between their actions and results, they are more motivated to change to avoid negative outcomes or gain positive ones. This transparency fosters accountability and encourages self-driven improvement.
  • Balancing individual performance and team cohesion means ensuring each member contributes effectively without harming group harmony. High performers may excel but can disrupt morale if their behavior is toxic. Leaders must address such issues to prevent resentment or division within the team. This balance preserves productivity while fostering a positive, collaborative environment.

Counterarguments

  • Leadership principles like 'Cover and Move' and 'Extreme Ownership' might not be universally applicable across different cultures or organizational structures, where alternative leadership styles could be more effective.
  • The concept of balanced application is subjective and can vary greatly between leaders, potentially leading to inconsistent application of principles.
  • Some leadership principles may become outdated or less effective as organizational priorities and societal values evolve.
  • Protecting underperforming team members can sometimes be a strategic choice to maintain morale or to invest in their potential long-term improvement.
  • The idea of stopping protection of individuals with unethical behavior assumes that leaders always have full visibility and understanding of the situation, which may not always be the case.
  • Tailoring approaches to specific situations and personalities can lead to perceptions of favoritism or inconsistency in leadership.
  • Isolating high-performing individuals might not address the root cause of the problematic behavior and could potentially create a divide within the team.
  • Open-ended questions may not always be effective in promoting self-reflection, especially if the employee lacks self-awareness or is not open to feedback.
  • Increasing directness can sometimes escalate conflicts or damage relationships rather than resolving the underlying issues.
  • Documentation and formal improvement plans can create an adversarial environment that may reduce trust and open communication.
  • Allowing employees to face the natural consequences of their actions assumes that those consequences are fair and proportionate, which may not always be the case.
  • Clarity about consequences might not always lead to self-correction; some individuals may respond with resistance or disengagement.
  • The balance between individual performance and team cohesion is complex and can sometimes require trade-offs that disadvantage either the individual or the team.
  • Isolation strategies could potentially stigmatize the isolated employee and may not be sustainable in the long term.

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Jocko Underground: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work.

Leadership Principles (E.G. Cover and Move, Extreme Ownership)

Leadership principles like 'Cover and Move' and 'Extreme Ownership' offer frameworks for effective team management and personal accountability. Understanding the nuances of these principles is critical for truly successful leadership.

Importance of Balance and Moderation in Leadership

Moderate Application of Leadership Concepts For Effectiveness

To maximize their effectiveness, leaders need to apply leadership concepts such as Cover and Move, which involves team members supporting each other, and Extreme Ownership, where leaders take full responsibility for their actions and their team, in moderation. An overzealous application of these concepts can lead to imbalance and reduce effectiveness.

Evaluating When Cover and Move Strategies Become Ineffective

Overreliance on 'Cover and Move' can sometimes be counterproductive, particularly when it means consistently picking up the slack for teammates who aren’t pulling their weight.

Covering For a Toxic or Underperforming Team Member Harms the Team and Mission

Leaders must recognize the point at which covering for a toxic or underperforming team member starts to harm both the team and its mission. Continuously protecting such individuals can create resentment within the team and hamper the mission's success, as it prevents the necessary feedback and growth for the underperforming member.

Covering For Unethical or Harmful Behavior Is Detrimental

Similarly, employing the 'Cover and Move' strategy in the face of unethical or harmful behavior is detrimental. This leads to the perpetuation of such behaviors and can erode the moral fabric and credibility of the team.

Tailoring Leadership To the Situation and Person

Effective leadership isn't one-size-fits-all – it requires tailoring strategies to suit the specific situation and the individuals ...

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Leadership Principles (E.G. Cover and Move, Extreme Ownership)

Additional Materials

Clarifications

  • "Cover and Move" is a military tactic originating from combat operations, where one unit provides covering fire while another moves forward. It emphasizes teamwork and mutual support to achieve objectives safely and effectively. In leadership, it symbolizes collaboration, with team members supporting each other to overcome challenges. The principle highlights interdependence rather than individual effort alone.
  • "Extreme Ownership" is a leadership philosophy popularized by former Navy SEALs Jocko Willink and Leif Babin. It means leaders accept full responsibility for everything in their team’s performance, including failures and mistakes. This mindset encourages proactive problem-solving and accountability without blaming others. It fosters trust and drives continuous improvement within the team.
  • "Overzealous application" means applying leadership principles too rigidly or excessively without adapting to the context. It can lead to micromanagement, burnout, or ignoring individual team needs. For example, always covering for teammates might prevent accountability and growth. Effective leadership balances principles with flexibility and situational awareness.
  • "Cover and Move" is a military-derived teamwork tactic where one group provides protective support ("cover") while another moves forward to achieve an objective. It emphasizes mutual reliance, ensuring team members protect each other to maintain momentum and safety. This principle fosters coordination, trust, and shared responsibility within the team. Effective execution requires clear communication and understanding of each member's role.
  • Toxic team members exhibit behaviors like constant negativity, undermining others, spreading gossip, or refusing to collaborate. Underperforming members consistently fail to meet deadlines, produce low-quality work, or lack the necessary skills or effort. Both types disrupt team morale and productivity. Identifying these behaviors early helps leaders address issues before they escalate.
  • Providing necessary feedback involves giving clear, specific information about a person's performance to help them understand what needs improvement. It is important because it enables individuals to recognize their weaknesses and develop skills or behaviors that enhance their effectiveness. Growth occurs when individuals apply this feedback to make positive changes, leading to better team performance and personal development. Without feedback, underperformance or harmful behaviors may persist, undermining the team's success.
  • Indirect leadership approaches influence team members through subtle means like setting examples, creating supportive environments, or encouraging self-reflection. Direct leadership approaches involve clear, explicit communication such as giving specific feedback, setting expectations, or addressing issues head-on. Indirect methods often build trust and motivation over time, while direct methods provide immediate clarity and correction. Effective leaders balance both to guide behavior and improve performance.
  • Isolating a high-performer's negative impact mea ...

Counterarguments

  • Leadership principles like 'Cover and Move' and 'Extreme Ownership' may not be universally applicable or effective in all cultural or organizational contexts.
  • The concept of moderation in applying leadership principles is subjective and can vary greatly between leaders, potentially leading to inconsistent application and confusion among team members.
  • The idea that leaders should take full responsibility can sometimes lead to a lack of accountability among team members if not properly balanced with individual responsibility.
  • The effectiveness of indirect versus direct approaches to guiding problematic team members is highly dependent on the individual's receptiveness to feedback, which can vary widely.
  • Isolating the negative impact of high-performing team members might inadvertently send a message that high performance can excuse negative behavior, which could be detrimental to team morale.
  • The notion of tailoring leadership to the situation and person, while ideal, may not always be practical in fast-paced or high-pressure enviro ...

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Jocko Underground: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work.

Managing Problem Employees and Toxic Team Members

The management of problematic employees and toxic team members is an essential skill in the workplace. Jocko Willink, a leadership expert, provides strategies for handling these challenging situations effectively.

Escalating Counseling and Discipline for Undesirable Behavior

Start With Open-Ended Questions For Employee Self-Reflection

Willink suggests beginning the conversation with open-ended questions to allow problem employees to reflect on their actions. These questions can target how their behavior might be perceived by others, its impact on team unity, and the potential negative effects on the mission.

Increase Directness In Counseling if the Behavior Persists

If an employee does not show improvement after indirect questioning, Willink advises leader to increase the directness of counseling. This is to prevent the team from suffering negative effects.

Document Performance Improvement Plans and Warnings Before Termination

Willink mentions that if counseling doesn't yield results, documentation of the issues should begin. This includes writing up official paperwork and involving the employee in a personnel improvement program.

Accepting Some Employees May "Dig Their Own Grave"

After Coaching, Leaders May Let Problem Employees Face Consequences

There comes a point after extensive coaching and support, according to Willink, where a leader must allow the problematic employee to face the natural consequences of their actions.

Clarity on Consequences of Poor Behavior Spurs Self-Correction

Willink also speaks to the importance of clarity regarding the consequences of poor ...

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Managing Problem Employees and Toxic Team Members

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • Open-ended questions may not always lead to self-reflection, as some employees might lack the insight or willingness to analyze their behavior critically.
  • Increasing directness in counseling could potentially escalate defensiveness in some employees, leading to further conflict rather than resolution.
  • Documentation and performance improvement plans can sometimes be perceived as punitive rather than constructive, which might demotivate the employee or create a hostile work environment.
  • Allowing employees to face the natural consequences of their actions assumes that they will recognize and correct their behavior, which may not always be the case.
  • Clarity on consequences might not always lead to self-correction, as some employees may not care about the repercussions or may not believe that the consequences will actually be enforced.
  • Balancing an employee's performance against their toxic behavior can sometimes send mixed messages to the team, potentially undermining ...

Actionables

  • You can create a reflective journal to practice open-ended questioning by writing down hypothetical scenarios involving problematic behavior and then crafting open-ended questions that could lead to self-reflection. For example, if you imagine a scenario where a team member is consistently late, write down questions like "What do you think are the effects of your tardiness on the team's workflow?" This exercise will help you develop the skill of asking insightful questions that encourage others to consider the impact of their actions.
  • Develop a behavior impact chart to visualize the balance between an employee's performance and their negative behavior. On one axis, list the positive contributions of the employee, and on the other, note the negative behaviors and their impact. This visual tool can help you objectively assess whether an employee's overall contribution outweighs the toxic behavior, aiding in decision-making about potential isolation or further actio ...

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Jocko Underground: Teamwork (Cover and Move) Does NOT Always Work.

The Importance of Feedback, Counseling, and Progressive Discipline

Feedback, counseling, and progressive discipline are vital components of effective workforce management, as discussed by Willink and supported by Echo Charles' ideas.

The Value of an Escalating Counseling Approach

Beginning With Indirect, Open-Ended Questions to Promote Self-Reflection

According to Willink, it's essential to begin addressing employee behavior with indirect, open-ended questions to promote self-reflection. He suggests asking someone if everything is okay when they've been late as a subtle way to raise awareness about their punctuality and its broader impact on the team's perception and mission achievement.

Increasingly Direct if Behavior Doesn't Improve

Willink emphasizes the need to become more direct in counseling if there's no behavioral improvement following an initial indirect approach. The aim is to prevent negative impacts on the team stemming from unaddressed issues. The counseling approach should escalate and become increasingly direct, clearly conveying the consequences of continued poor behavior.

Documenting Performance Issues and Warnings Before Termination

While not explicitly mentioned, the conversation implies a progressive discipline path, where discussions and warnings gradually escalate and are documented before a final consequence, such as termination, is considered.

Recognizing When an Employee Must "Dig Their Grave"

After Coaching, Let Employees Experience Natural Consequences

Echo Charles brings up the point of allowing an employee to experience the natural consequences of their behavior after coaching. Willink agrees, suggesting that if employees ignore warnings and coaching, they should be left to "dig their own grave" by facing the outcomes of their actions. ...

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The Importance of Feedback, Counseling, and Progressive Discipline

Additional Materials

Counterarguments

  • While indirect, open-ended questions can promote self-reflection, they may also be too subtle for some employees to understand the seriousness of the issue, leading to a lack of urgency in addressing the problem.
  • Direct communication is important, but escalating too quickly to directness without ensuring an employee understands the feedback can lead to defensiveness or resistance.
  • Documenting performance issues is crucial, but over-documentation can create a culture of fear and mistrust if employees feel they are constantly being monitored for mistakes.
  • Allowing employees to experience the natural consequences of their actions can be an effective learning tool, but it may also result in unnecessary damage to the team or project if not monitored closely.
  • Clarifying consequences is important, but it must be done with care to avoid seeming punitive or retaliatory, which could damage the relationship between the employee and management.
  • Isolati ...

Actionables

  • You can enhance self-awareness in others by starting a peer feedback loop at work. Encourage your colleagues to pair up and share constructive feedback on a weekly basis, focusing on one behavior they've observed in each other that could be improved. This practice fosters a culture of self-reflection and accountability without direct confrontation.
  • Develop a behavior impact journal to track your observations of team dynamics. Note instances where specific behaviors, whether positive or negative, affected the team's performance or morale. Use this journal to inform your approach when discussing behavior with colleagues, providing concrete examples of how their actions impact the group.
  • Create a personal consequence roadmap for behaviors you're trying to change in yourself. Identify a behavior you want to improv ...

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