{"id":71563,"date":"2022-07-06T09:52:00","date_gmt":"2022-07-06T13:52:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.shortform.com\/blog\/?p=71563"},"modified":"2022-07-18T11:03:08","modified_gmt":"2022-07-18T15:03:08","slug":"agathon-symposium","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shortform.com\/blog\/agathon-symposium\/","title":{"rendered":"Plato’s Symposium: Agathon’s Speech"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

What does Agathon say about love in Plato’s Symposium<\/em>? Why does Socrates disagree with Agathon? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

In Symposium<\/em>, Agathon’s speech centers on Eros, the god of love, endowing him with three characteristics: Eros is beloved, Eros is an artist, and Eros is good. Socrates, however, disagrees with Agathon, arguing that Eros is a lover rather than a beloved. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Let’s examine the main ideas of Agathon\u2019s description of Eros, as well as Socrates\u2019s rebuttal and alternative description. <\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n

Descriptions of the God of Love<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

In Plato’s Symposium<\/em>, Agathon\u2019s speech approaches love in a new way\u2014addressing not the benefits<\/em> of love, but rather love itself: Eros, the god of love.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

(Shortform note: To better understand the distinction Agathon makes between love and the god of love, let\u2019s examine the Greek word for love that the Symposium<\/em> uses: eros<\/strong>. Eros means love in the sense of passionate desire, usually in a sexual context<\/a> (the English word \u201cerotic\u201d derives from eros). However, Eros is also the name of the god of love and sexual attraction<\/a>\u2014a god the Romans called Cupid. At the start of his speech, Agathon argues that the others only spoke of the feeling<\/em> eros, rather than the god<\/em> Eros. To make this difference clear, our guide will use Eros to describe the god, and \u201clove\u201d to describe the feeling\u2014<\/strong>even though \u201ceros\u201d technically applies to both.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Agathon\u2019s Description of Eros<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n

Agathon describes Eros as having many qualities\u2014but these qualities tend to fall into three categories:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

  1. Eros is beloved<\/strong>: Agathon describes Eros as a beloved\u2014a creature of beauty, grace, and eternal youth who\u2019s desired by others rather than being the desirer himself. Everyone<\/em> desires Eros, but he surrounds himself only with other beautiful and soft things. <\/li>
  2. Eros is an artist: <\/strong>Agreeing with Eryximachus that love can apply to all arts and skills, Agathon claims that Eros must be an expert<\/a> at them all. Since love inspires people to become great<\/a> artists, then the god<\/em> of love must have talent himself to impart to others.<\/li>
  3. Eros is good:<\/strong> Agathon suggests that love is incompatible with injustice or other evils\u2014as a result, Eros is always fair, generous, and moral in his dealings and actions. <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n

    (Shortform note: Historical context helps to contextualize the ideas of Agathon\u2019s speech. Agathon was a poet in ancient Athens known for his tragic plays and incredible physical beauty<\/a>. He was also the beloved of Pausanias (who spoke earlier in the dialogue) in a relationship that ended up lasting 30 years (far longer than was typical of pederasty). Based on these details, scholars generally suggest that Agathon compares himself to Eros in his speech<\/a>\u2014he speaks of the great physical beauty and poetry of Eros, and of his virtue in relationships (something that Agathon\u2019s lover Pausanias also discusses). By comparing himself to Eros, Agathon further cements his view that Eros is the beloved of a pederastic relationship.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Socrates and Diotima\u2019s Description of Eros<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n

    Socrates praises the beauty of Agathon\u2019s speech, then politely informs him that everything he said was wrong. Then, Socrates gives his own speech on love. His speech mainly consists of him recounting a past conversation he had with a wise woman named Diotima. Diotima, he says, taught him everything he knows about love. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    (Shortform note: In a dialogue primarily concerned with the intellectual and homoerotic lives of men, it might seem confusing that Socrates cites a woman for his views on love. Scholars suggest that Socrates cites Diotima as a way to gain credibility<\/a>. Diotima speaks at length on childbirth, pregnancy, and reproduction (which we discuss later in the guide), all subjects strongly associated with women and femininity in ancient Athens. These scholars therefore suggest that Socrates (and perhaps Plato through him) uses Diotima to appeal to that perceived feminine \u201cexpertise\u201d in his arguments.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    According to Diotima, Eros is not <\/strong>beloved<\/em><\/strong>, but rather is a <\/strong>lover<\/em><\/strong>\u2014one that desires and seeks out beautiful things. Instead of a soft, youthful, and beautiful god, he\u2019s an old, tough, and hardened spirit. He acts as a messenger between the humans and gods, delivering human prayers and offerings to the gods and divine instructions or blessings to humans. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    (Shortform note: Plato evokes Socrates\u2014an old, gnarled man seeking out beauty and wisdom\u2014with this description of Eros. Plato\u2019s works (and the Symposium<\/em> in particular) are some of the only surviving descriptions of who Socrates was and what he was like\u2014other descriptions include Aristophanes\u2019s The Clouds<\/em><\/a> (a comic play satirizing Socrates and his philosophy) and philosopher Xenophon\u2019s dialogues. All three of these works present Socrates as absent-minded, unkempt, and more interested in knowledge than he is in the concrete world around him. By having Diotima describe Eros in a similar way, Plato implies that Socrates is the ideal erotic man\u2014a claim that makes more sense once Diotima connects love and philosophy.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    To explain this conclusion, she further defines the act of loving and what it reveals about Eros.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    What Loving Is<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

    Diotima begins by describing the act of loving\u2014after all, loving is by definition what Eros does. She reaches the following two conclusions:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    1. Love requires an object: <\/strong>Love only exists in relation to something else. For example: \u201cAristophanes loves wine<\/em>.\u201d Without the object, the sentence makes no sense: \u201dAristophanes loves\u201d doesn\u2019t mean anything. <\/li>
    2. People love what they don\u2019t have: <\/strong>Loving an object means desiring it, and nobody would desire something they already have. If someone says they love something they have, it actually means they desire to continue<\/em> having it. <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n

      (Shortform note: Some scholars suggest that because of these two conclusions, Plato presents a tragic view of love<\/a>. By definition, Plato says we love what we don\u2019t have and can never get\u2014if we ever got the object of our love, then we\u2019d either stop loving it or worry about losing it in the future. She suggests that those with an excess of such desires can often end up as tragic figures, with lives defined by longing, incompleteness, or a lack of satisfaction. As you read the rest of the guide, keep in mind how Plato\u2019s view on love might create such a tragic figure\u2014especially once we get to Alcibiades\u2019s speech.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      What Eros Isn\u2019t<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

      Based on her conclusions about loving, Diotima outlines four things that Eros is not:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

      1. Eros is not beautiful: <\/strong>Eros desires beauty, and people desire what they don\u2019t have. Therefore, Eros isn\u2019t beautiful. <\/li>
      2. Eros is not good: <\/strong>All good things are beautiful\u2014that\u2019s why they\u2019re attractive. Since Eros desires beauty, it follows that he desires good as well and therefore is not good himself. <\/li>
      3. Eros is not wise: <\/strong>Wisdom is a good and beautiful quality, so Eros must desire it\u2014and, therefore, lacks it. <\/li>
      4. Eros is not a god: <\/strong>Gods are perfect beings that lack nothing\u2014since Eros lacks beauty, goodness, and wisdom, it follows that he isn\u2019t a god. <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n

        However, this doesn\u2019t mean that Eros is ugly, bad, ignorant, and mortal\u2014instead, he exists somewhere between all of these extremes.<\/strong> Someone who is entirely bad doesn\u2019t desire<\/em> goodness, and someone who is entirely ignorant is unaware of their ignorance and therefore doesn\u2019t desire<\/em> wisdom. Therefore, Eros has just enough wisdom and goodness to recognize what he doesn\u2019t have\u2014and to recognize that he wants it. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

        What does Agathon say about love in Plato’s Symposium? Why does Socrates disagree with Agathon? In Symposium, Agathon’s speech centers on Eros, the god of love, endowing him with three characteristics: Eros is beloved, Eros is an artist, and Eros is good. Socrates, however, disagrees with Agathon, arguing that Eros is a lover rather than a beloved. Let’s examine the main ideas of Agathon\u2019s description of Eros, as well as Socrates\u2019s rebuttal and alternative description. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":7,"featured_media":48773,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[40,21],"tags":[675],"class_list":["post-71563","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-books","category-philosophy","tag-symposium","","tg-column-two"],"yoast_head":"\nPlato's Symposium: Agathon's Speech - Shortform Books<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"In Plato's Symposium, Agathon's speech centers on Eros, the god of love. 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